RIC Execution at Ninemilehouse??

[ryk102]

Good afternoon all.
This is what is known -
Parents - Jeremiah and Hannah Murphy - no information other than them living in
                Ninemilehouse.   
Children - Patrick, Born - 1858 (Ninemilehouse or Carrick-on-Suir), Emigrated to US in 1908,
                Thomas, Born - 1888 (Ninemilehouse or Carrick-on-Suir), Emigrated to US in 1911
                Mary, Born -               , lifelong resident of Ninemilehouse
                Unknown Male child who was shot by the RIC from Tipperary Barracks in the yard
                of the family home in Ninemilehouse (or by the local RIC). The last name I have is
                Sgt. J. Brennan (Local RIC, taken from the 1889 Bassett's Tipperary Directory).   
                Unknown children who may have been born to Jeremiah and Hannah after 1911.
Would appreciate any help with information about the parents, daughter Mary or any other children born after Thomas. The death of the unknown male probably occurred between 1909 and 1910 and most likely prompted the emigration of Thomas who may have been involved with his brother in some action against the RIC prior to the start of the Independance War in 1911.
RYK102

[annclare]

Have you found the family on the 1901 Census and is 1858 the correct birth year for Patrick. If it is - it is unlikely that there were children after 1911.
annclare

[aghadowey]

I'm also a bit confused at the dates. It's unlikely that Patrick born 1858 and Thomas born 1888 are brothers and even more unlikely that parents had any other children after 1911 

I had a look at 1901 and 1911 census and can't find any of the family- confirmation of their ages would certainly help find them in both sets of records. (If you've already found them please post the links here so we can have a look also)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Would think that 1909/1911 is a bit early for such an incident.
Only shooting at Ninemilehouse I could find so far is in 1920 "Dec-20 West Kilkenny IRA carry out an ambush on a joint police-military patrol at Nine-Mile-House near the Kilkenny-Tipperary border (between Cullan and Glenbower).  Eight soldiers are killed and an RIC sergeant (Sgt Thomas Walsh)."
http://www.dcu.ie/~foxs/irhist/december_1920.htm

[ryk102]

I was also thrown a bit by the age difference. 
I am married to Thomas's daughter so I am fairly confident about his information. Passenger manifests from Ellis Island and White Star Lines show him leaving Queenstown in late September 1911 and arriving in the US in early October aboard the SS Majestic. His mother is listed as Hannah, place of birth as Carrick-on-Suir and his age as 18. Civil records in the US (census, childrens birth certificates, etc.) show his place of birth as Ninemilehouse and his age at arrival as 24.
Patrick lived not far from us and all relatives on his tree branch are confident about his information.  I can explain the age differnce this way - there are 3 generations from Patrick in the US and 2 generations from Thomas. That would seem to indicate a difference in age between Patrick and Thomas of roughly 20 - 25 years. That would also point to the possibility of a sibling born between Patrick and Thomas. My wife recalls writing letters as a child for her father, addressed to sister Molly (Mary?) in Ninemilehouse. Molly could be the sibling between the two.
The RIC story was told by Thomas to his children. The earliest reference I could find was the 1920 ambush incident in Ninemilehouse that you mentioned, but that happened well after Thomas left Ireland. It's also possible that Thomas got into trouble on his own somewhere between 1908 and 1911 and felt he had to leave Ireland. Are there any links to local RIC files for Ninemilehouse for that time period? It's also possible that Jeremiah was not the name of the father. I am sure about Hannah being the name of the mother.
In short - I can trace Patrick and Thomas leaving Ireland but little or nothing before that.
Ryk102

[aghadowey]

Starting with the facts-
Thomas Murphy, age 18, arrived at Ellis Island 5 Oct.1911 on "Majestic" from Queenstown, Ireland. last residence was Carrick on Suir, mother Hannah Murphy of Windgap Co. Kilkenny.
Travelling with cousins Mary Wall and John Wall- all born Carrick on Suir and going to cousin Joseph J. Flynn, 10 South St., Waterbury, Connecticut.

Since Thomas listed his mother as next of kin it's quite possible his father died before 1911. I tried to find Hannah Murphy in 1911 census without any luck yet.
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I did find a possible household in 1901 census where Hannah Murphy is a widow with several children named Edmond, Patrick, Michael, Thomas, Peter, James, Mary, John.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Newtown/Castlejohn/1694749
Looks like Hannah Murphy remarried c1905 and had 2 more sons children-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Newtown/Castlejohn/840484
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did Thomas Murphy marry and/or die in Connecticut? Connecticut certificates show names of both parents which will confirm his father's name and mother's first and maiden names (marriage certificate more reliable since he would have provided the details)
Once you have the parents' names it should be clear whether or not the above Hannah Murphy is Thomas' mother.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Windgap Co. Kilkenny is on the Tipperary boarder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windgap,_County_Kilkenny
Wonder if this is your Thomas Murphy in 1911 census before he went to America?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Killamery/Melaghmore__Upper/563307

[aghadowey]

Think I'm on the right track with Hannah Murphy living in Castlejohn in 1901.

Patrick Murphy, age 21, arried Ellis Island 16 Sept.1908 "Oceanic" from Queenstown, married, going to brother-in-law Patk Flynn in Waterbury, mother Hannah Murphy Castlejohn, accompanied by wife Bridget (age 29).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Newtown/Castlejohn/1694749

[ryk102]

You have the right information for the arrival of Patrick and the right information on his marriage.

I will try on follow-up on the info about Hannah as that seems possible.

Thomas was married twice (Nora Catherine Ladden and Helen O'Brien Fitzgerald) in Connecticut and died in Waterbury,CT. in 1960.

Amazing results so quickly.

[ryk102]

Nora Ladden was born in Kerry in 1885, died in Connecticut in 1927.

[aghadowey]

Using the 1901 and 1911 census the following is a little outline which might help-

? Murphy (died 1897/1901) m. Hannah (Fitzpatrick?) (born c1866/68 Co. Kilkenny-died after 1911)- all their children born Co.Tipperary.
1. Edmond/Edward Murphy (c1886/7)- Edmund/Edward are interchangable.
2. Patrick Murphy (c1887) m. Bridget. To US 1908.
3. Michael Murphy (c1889)
4. Thomas Murphy (c1891). To US 1911.
5. Peter Murphy (c1892)
6. James Murphy (c1894)
7. Mary Murphy (c1895/1896)
8. John Murphy (c1897/1898)

Hannah Murphy then married (c1901) Edward Neill (c1869 Co.Tipperary). He had 2 sons- Matthew (c1901) and Francis (c1903). Two children of Hannah and Edward (more could be born after 1911)-
1. Johanna Neill (c1905)
2. Lawrence Neill (c1907)