John Gardner/ Stirling Lunatic Asylum

[Albanwraig]

Hi Monica,
The children:

Janet b1844; married James Watson 1866
William b 1846 - zero after 1861 census
John b 1848; married Ann Baird 1871
James b 1851; married Alison Hailston 1896
Ann b 1853; married James Baxter 1872
Henry b 1856, only 1861 census
Mary b 1859, only 1861 and 1871 censuses
Helen Gaff b 1862; married John Connell 1881
In none of the marriages is either parent noted as deceased, although James was the person who gave the details for his mother's death certificate in 1893!!

I have the details of the tombstones both for James and John Gaff if you wish them.

 :)Thank you for the idea - I had forgotten to check the MCs -- 

My interest is on the Gaff side of the family.

Helenor

[Albanwraig]

Hi Margow,

Thanks I'll give that a go

Helenor

[donkeykong]

HI Henry Gardner married on 22 February 1889 in Ediburgh to Ann Carse and he died 4 June 1930 in Edinburgh

[Albanwraig]

I have been having another go at this.

First I asked Scotlands People how to access the censuses for the asylum as I would have liked to have gone through the censuses to see if John Gardner was there. However, the answer I got was to look up the name as per normal. Somehow I had got it in my head that the inmates were listed by initials only.

Secondly I inquired at Stirling University Archives and, got a good reply which I will copy:

I have checked the records of Stirling District Asylym and found an entry in an admission register for the John Gardner who died in the asylum on 30 May 1880. It doesn’t appear that the hospital had much information about the patient, who was transferred from Govan Poorhouse in Glasgow (see the attached transcription of the entry). However both his age and the ‘Parish to which chargeable’ suggest it may be the same John Gardner as you are researching. The parish is recorded as Muiravonside which is close to Slamannan, where he was recorded as residing in the 1861 and 1871 census.
 
Unfortunately there are no case books present for the period when John was a patient (they may have provided further information).

However the attachment would seem to suggest that this is not the John Gardner I am looking for.

I have attached the attachment [I hope] which shows that the inmate John Gardner had been a Sawyer.

The University Archivist also said:

If it is the same John Gardner he may have fallen on hard times and ended up in Govan Poorhouse. I would suggest your next step is to contact Glasgow City Archives who hold the records of Govan Poorhouse as part of their Poor Law Archives:
http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/the-mitchell-library/archives/collections/poor-law-archives/Pages/default.aspx
 
The John Gardner I am interested in was born in Torphichan. I would imagine that he would have been a charge on that parish if a need had arisen?

I think I will leave it here for the moment - unless, of course, someone has a suggestion.

I perhaps will try the census again,

Helenor

[Forfarian]

The John Gardner I am interested in was born in Torphichan. I would imagine that he would have been a charge on that parish if a need had arisen?

Either on the parish of his birth or the parish where he most recently acquired 'settlement', which in his case would have meant that he resided there continuously five years. If he was in Slamannan in both 1851 and 1861, he would almost certainly have acquired 'settlement' in Slamannan.

However that does not mean that he would not have been dealt with somewhere else initially.

Suppose he had moved to Glasgow and shortly afterwards (i.e. not long enough to acquire 'settlement' in Glasgow) become ill or fallen on hard times. He (or someone on his behalf) would have applied to the Glasgow parochial board for 'relief'. The Glasgow Inspector of Poor would have visited him and gathered all relevant information, including his parish(es) of birth and settlement, names of wife and children, ages of children, and the circumstances leading to the application. The Inspector could give temporary relief, which could include sending him to the poorhouse in Govan, and then reported to his Board.

The Glasgow parochial board would then write to the parochial board in his parish of settlement to notify it that one of its paupers was being supported, and to ask that Board to decide how to deal further with him. The other Board could either ask Glasgow to keep him in their poorhouse and agree to pay his costs there, or ask them to send him to their own poorhouse or other appropriate place.

So if I were you I would be falling over myself to see the Glasgow parochial board's records of John Gardner. They should be in the City of Glasgow Archives in the Mitchell Library.

(PS different procedures apply before 1845; until then, paupers were dealt with by the kirk.)

[Albanwraig]

Hi all,

His wife and children were all present and correct in Slamannan: censuses; marriages; births of children; even burials and monumental inscriptions. Ann Gaff, his wife, was buried with one of the sons and mentioned on the gravestone.

He was a master baker [see initial post] employing three men. Two of his sons continued the business with his wife being a grocer.

The person in the asylum was, as I said, a sawyer.

I will of course try the Poor Law records, but not immediately. It no longer seems quite as high a priority. I am going to have another look at the censuses. As none of the marriage certificates nor Ann's death certificate have him as deceased I may try the statutory deaths again - although there are quite a few John Gardners -- will have to wait to garner a few bawbees before tackling that!

As a previous poster stated 1891 census search draws a blank - so far.

Again this is not my main line. I was hoping [sigh] that someone whose main line it was knew that he had emigrated to Timbuktu !!

Thanks to all

Helenor

[MonicaL]

...A Master Baker and a sawyer, both trained skills. As you mention, doesn't sound like the same man 

Monica

[SandyMcJ]

My great aunt's father-in-law died in Larbert Lunatic Asylum and the death record is quite interesting. It says he was widowed but doesn't mention his widow's name. It gives no record of his parents, and lists his occupation as farmer although he had been a policeman! The preceding record in the register was another inmate who was listed as 'married to ' and there is just a line where the name would have been. Again the box for the parents' names has no details.

My great aunt's marriage record, her husband's death record and her mother-in-law's death records all have differences, including name changes, which may have been to cover up the fact that their relative was in the asylum.

So, although the above is pointing to two different John Gardners, maybe some details have been changed or overlooked because of the stigma which sadly existed at that time.

Sandy

[MonicaL]

You are right to mention this, Sandy. This type of reporting was always open to errors and omissions 

Monica