Author Topic: war of the roses knight  (Read 7269 times)

Offline aakarlhamo

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war of the roses knight
« on: Friday 10 June 11 18:04 BST (UK) »
Hello

Can anyone help me trace our ancestor's coat of arms.  :)

We have a hand drawing in black and white of the crest.  The colours are hand written to the sides.

At the bottom are 3 gold ships on royal blue water. Above that the background is red and there is a single arch bridge in gold/yellow that stretches right across the shield.  Above that in the left corner is a white rose, centre is a fleur de leis, right a red rose.  Surrounding the shield are 2 branches with leaves on.  There is something at the  centre top but I cannot make it out - maybe a helmet.

On the back of the drawing is written:
 
"Read up on the War of the Roses
Serjeant was knighted and given the land from Cambridge University to Halton this is where our
grandparents stay. 
The lands have been gradually sold by each family till Halton was the only one left, that was sold and money divided among living children of Alfred Serjeant.  Last one to own some of the land."

The family member said that our family originally came from France. Apparently our Serjeant name was pronounced Sir John.  So it is possible that his name could be a variation of Serjeant or something along the lines of Surgon - pronounced with a French accent  ;)  On the other hand, maybe the surname was something completely different!  ???

Our family can be traced back to 1670,  John Serjeant born Haslingfield Cambs.  The family always lived in Haslingfield/Harlton until the 20th century. Is Halton an old name for Harlton.  The only other Halton I can find is in Manchester!

Are the images in the coat of arms a clue to the deeds of our ancestor  :)

I am very new to this so be gentle  ;D
SUSSEX: GANDER, HARMES, BURTENSHAW, HEASMAN, CHATFIELD
CAMBS :  SERJEANT, THURSTON, BUSH, SMART, BOLTON, MATTHEWS, REEDER, RAINER, PATMAN BECHINO, ALIAS GOOCH/CURTIS, WALLIS
KINGS LYNN: ASSELL, THURSTON
SUFFOLK: HENLEY , DARE
KENT: ASH, STICKLES
LONDON/MIDDX: HARMES, PIERPOINT, ASSELL, COWLAND, SMART, STRONG,
ESSEX: PIERPOINT, COWLAND,  OLLEY, ALIAS HICKS/KING
AUSTRALIA: ALIAS HICKS KING
CANADA: AYERS

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 21 July 11 11:25 BST (UK) »
What you have described is a shield and its mantling.  You are correct that there should be a helmet on top of the shield.  The crest usually sits on top of the helmet.  If there is such a crest then a description of it and the helmet can tell us quite a lot about the person granted the coat of arms.

The actual shield is fairly complex and unlikely to date to much earlier than the 17th century.  To have both the red and white roses on the shield is unusual as one would expect any reference to the war of the roses to be to one side or the other.  I suspect the shield was designed by someone with a vague idea of the family's history possibly as the result of a 17th century knighthood.

I don't think the difference in spelling of Halsey and Harlsey is in any way significant and is almost certainly the same place.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline aakarlhamo

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #2 on: Friday 22 July 11 19:18 BST (UK) »
Hello

Thank you for replying. I thought I was going to be the only one without a reply :-[

My cousin has sent me a picture of a shield that the old aunt had made when she came over to England sometime in the 1970/80.

I am not sure if I can upload it but just in case I can't it has a wreath of red and white roses round the head.

I think there are a couple of discrepancies betwen the drawing and the actual coat of arms that has been made.  The colours mentioned on the picture say that the bridge is gold. and on the made up coat of arms they have put it as white.  Also it is not apparent that there is a wreath of roses on the helmet!  I wonder if the maker has used artistic licence?
SUSSEX: GANDER, HARMES, BURTENSHAW, HEASMAN, CHATFIELD
CAMBS :  SERJEANT, THURSTON, BUSH, SMART, BOLTON, MATTHEWS, REEDER, RAINER, PATMAN BECHINO, ALIAS GOOCH/CURTIS, WALLIS
KINGS LYNN: ASSELL, THURSTON
SUFFOLK: HENLEY , DARE
KENT: ASH, STICKLES
LONDON/MIDDX: HARMES, PIERPOINT, ASSELL, COWLAND, SMART, STRONG,
ESSEX: PIERPOINT, COWLAND,  OLLEY, ALIAS HICKS/KING
AUSTRALIA: ALIAS HICKS KING
CANADA: AYERS

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #3 on: Friday 22 July 11 21:43 BST (UK) »
>Also it is not apparent that there is a wreath of roses on the helmet! 
>I wonder if the maker has used artistic licence?

It is actually not a wreath of roses, but a torse, here a representation of the twisted strands of silk or cloth that were used to hold the mantling onto the helmet and to hide where the crest was attached.  Red and white (although to adhere to the usual rules of heraldic display, white and red) were the colors most commonly used in earlier times.  More recently it is more common to see torses (or wreaths, as they are sometimes termed) in the first color and metal of the arms, but previously many of them were white and red, regardless of the tinctures of the arms.

David


Offline aakarlhamo

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #4 on: Friday 22 July 11 22:11 BST (UK) »
Hi David

Thanks for your reply and comments. 

Does this mean that the crest is missing if there is only the torse?
If so where would it be or could it be that there wasn't one?

Does the coat of arms give you any hints about the person that it was awarded to?

I followed the links on Roots and checked in the books by Burke and the only coat of arms associated with  the Serjeant name and its derivatives had dolphins on it.  Mind you the story goes that our family name of Serjeant was pronounced Sir John, maybe the name was originally Surgun or something similar.

I'm confused.com  ;D

Carole
SUSSEX: GANDER, HARMES, BURTENSHAW, HEASMAN, CHATFIELD
CAMBS :  SERJEANT, THURSTON, BUSH, SMART, BOLTON, MATTHEWS, REEDER, RAINER, PATMAN BECHINO, ALIAS GOOCH/CURTIS, WALLIS
KINGS LYNN: ASSELL, THURSTON
SUFFOLK: HENLEY , DARE
KENT: ASH, STICKLES
LONDON/MIDDX: HARMES, PIERPOINT, ASSELL, COWLAND, SMART, STRONG,
ESSEX: PIERPOINT, COWLAND,  OLLEY, ALIAS HICKS/KING
AUSTRALIA: ALIAS HICKS KING
CANADA: AYERS

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #5 on: Friday 22 July 11 22:59 BST (UK) »
The wreath on top of the helmet is normal in a coat of arms and usually has a crest sitting on it.
The only crest that I could find for the Sergeant name was of a swimming dolphin.  Do I gather you found a shield with dolphins on it?
I think your bridge may be a representation of battlements rather than a bridge.
I am much happier with two white roses for reasons of the relationship between colour and metals (white is silver) usually found on a shield as well as any historic connection.
After the sixteenth century the helmet shown is a gentleman's helmet rather than that used for a knight although earlier than that helmets were not distinguished.
It is not unusual for colours to be changed in shields adopted by close members of a family who are not direct heirs.
It is possible that the fleur de lis is a brisure showing that the shield is that of or descended from a sixth son.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline GR2

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #6 on: Friday 22 July 11 23:31 BST (UK) »
There were several different officials called sergeants and that is the origin of the name. It is like Stewart which derives from steward. As there were so many sergeants and stewards, they don't all go back to common ancestors. Do you know what your known 17th century ancestor did? You should always work backwards. Lots of time can be wasted trying to work forwards from earlier people with the same name only to find they do not connect.

Graham.

Offline aakarlhamo

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #7 on: Friday 22 July 11 23:54 BST (UK) »
I think they were mostly farmers/yeomen. Farming got bad at one point so land was sold off.
They certainly were an interesting family.  They always had land and rented properties so they were never poor.

I will email my cousin in Canada as she will know more precise.

I was just thinking that as far as I know, non of our ancestors back until 1655 has done anything that would warrant a knighthood. Nothing stands out in the geno.  They are just Cambridge famlies.
The earliest is John Serjeant  abt1655 with wife Marie. His sons are John and Devereaux 1686.  That is an unusual name.

Thanks
SUSSEX: GANDER, HARMES, BURTENSHAW, HEASMAN, CHATFIELD
CAMBS :  SERJEANT, THURSTON, BUSH, SMART, BOLTON, MATTHEWS, REEDER, RAINER, PATMAN BECHINO, ALIAS GOOCH/CURTIS, WALLIS
KINGS LYNN: ASSELL, THURSTON
SUFFOLK: HENLEY , DARE
KENT: ASH, STICKLES
LONDON/MIDDX: HARMES, PIERPOINT, ASSELL, COWLAND, SMART, STRONG,
ESSEX: PIERPOINT, COWLAND,  OLLEY, ALIAS HICKS/KING
AUSTRALIA: ALIAS HICKS KING
CANADA: AYERS

Offline aakarlhamo

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Re: war of the roses knight
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 23 July 11 00:07 BST (UK) »
I think a penny has just dropped.

I have seen the term 'serjeant at law'.  It comes up a lot when I am searching our name in early text.  So will one of our early ancestors have been one of these serjeants? ;)

When and where did they originate and what did they do?
SUSSEX: GANDER, HARMES, BURTENSHAW, HEASMAN, CHATFIELD
CAMBS :  SERJEANT, THURSTON, BUSH, SMART, BOLTON, MATTHEWS, REEDER, RAINER, PATMAN BECHINO, ALIAS GOOCH/CURTIS, WALLIS
KINGS LYNN: ASSELL, THURSTON
SUFFOLK: HENLEY , DARE
KENT: ASH, STICKLES
LONDON/MIDDX: HARMES, PIERPOINT, ASSELL, COWLAND, SMART, STRONG,
ESSEX: PIERPOINT, COWLAND,  OLLEY, ALIAS HICKS/KING
AUSTRALIA: ALIAS HICKS KING
CANADA: AYERS