Coat of Arms

[Grasc]

Would anyone be able to direct me as to where I might find the name of the family whose Arms are shown on the right (as you look at the photo) of the Arms of Warton of Beverley Parks, Yorkshire?
I am familiar with the Warton Arms & Crest but the other Arms are not known to me.
Thank you
Grasc

[danuslave]

Can't help I'm afraid, but I did 2 years evening class in Heraldry (about a hundred years ago) so I'll be interested in any answers you get.   

BTW where did you find out about the Warton Arms & Crest because the reference books I have don't mention them and I can't find anything much online

Linda

[KGarrad]

I'm not convinced about the colours on the coat of arms !

Normal (English) heraldry "rules" insist that a colour ( or tincture) must be separated from another colour by either a metal (gold, silver) or a fur?

So the 2 chevrons, being red and black, don't seem right to me?!


Looks like the whole thing has been repainted, and artistic licence used? 



Danuslave,
I did a Google search for arms warton beverley park, and got a hit on Maltby-Maltbie family history.
Quote from page 17:

We give the Wharton pedigree from Le Neves Pedigrees of Knights, Edit. Geo W. Marshall (1873) Vol VIII., p. 205. Ebor. Sir Miles Wharton Kted at Whitehall, 3d June 1666. Sir Ralf Wharton of Beverly Kted at Newmarket, 19 March, 1668. (See Sir William Dugdales, Vist. of Yorks, vol 237). Coat, Crest, Quarterings, etc. Or, on a chevron azure a martlet bet. two Pheons of the first. (See Vist. of York coppied by Sir Philip Constable in my hand. P. Le Neve norroy, page 258.

[davidbappleton]

I'm not convinced about the colours on the coat of arms !

Normal (English) heraldry "rules" insist that a colour ( or tincture) must be separated from another colour by either a metal (gold, silver) or a fur?

So the 2 chevrons, being red and black, don't seem right to me?!

The general "rule of tincture" or "rule of contrast", as it is sometimes called, states that "colour must not be placed upon colour, nor metal upon metal."  However, the rule does not state that colour may not be placed next to colour, else we would not find fields like "Per pale gules and azure."

What we have here is not two chevrons, but a single one divided "per chevron" of two colours.  (It is admittedly a rare motif, but is certainly permissible.)  This one is, in fact, very similar to a coat found in Papworth's Ordinary for Moulso, Or a chevron per chevron gules and sable between three fleurs-de-lis seeded ermines (the differences being the number, type, and tincture of the charges around the chevron).

Unfortunately for the identification of the coat of arms in question, I did not find anything closer in Papworth than the Moulso arms.  It is certainly possible that the arms here are related to Moulso, but I did not find these arms under that name (or any reasonably close spelling) in Burke's General Armory.

David

[KGarrad]

David,

I stand corrected!! 
I was trying to quote from memory. Close-ish!!

The arms still look overpainted to me - it would be unusual (though not impossible) for the impaled arms to be of the same basic (background) colour? Especially gold?

Kevin

[davidbappleton]

The arms still look overpainted to me - it would be unusual (though not impossible) for the impaled arms to be of the same basic (background) colour? Especially gold?

No, it wouldn't really be unusual.  When you consider that there are only seven basic tinctures the fields could be in heraldry (not counting fields of divided tinctures), the odds are that one in every seven impaled coats would have the same tincture on each side.  If the chevron or the other charges were white, there would be more likelihood that the field tincture was incorrectly painted, but everything here is high contrast (colours on metal), which reduces (though, of course, does not eliminate) the likelihood of error.

David

[behindthefrogs]

It is interesting that the only description of the crest that I can find has the squirrel in its natural colours with a gold acorn and a gold collar.  This may support the idea of overpainting although I can see no evidence of the collar.

[danuslave]

It's all coming back to me now (well some of it!)  It's like learning a whole new language