Author Topic: name help to unlock my tree  (Read 2900 times)

Offline eharkin1

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
name help to unlock my tree
« on: Monday 27 June 11 22:54 BST (UK) »
Hi there

very new to this and was hoping that someone could help me find out a name. My 2x great grandmothers name is preventing me from going any further with her side of the tree. Her marriage certificate says Betsy Ryland (her maiden name), her census in 1901 says B King, and her 1911 census says Bessie king and her death certificate says Bessie King.

Yet when i do a search for either a Betsy Ryland or Bessie Ryland for rotherhithe areas for her birth i come up with nothing. I know her father is called Thomas Ryland as he is on the marriage certficate.

I feel this census with the most complete name for her is my biggest clue but i cant tell what it says.

She is third from the top underneath her husband George KIng

Can anyone help me with this??
Carter: herts, peckham
Jacobs: London, Camberwell
Webb: London
Ellis: London
King: Bletchingley, Essex, middlesex
Ryland: Essex, West Ham
Sadler: Essex
Gowers: Essex

Offline shanghaipanda

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #1 on: Monday 27 June 11 23:35 BST (UK) »
Could it possibly be Benjamina.  In Scotland male names are frequently turned into female, Angusina, Donaldina, Murdina (Murdo).  There is a Benjamina King in West Bromwich in 1881 census, born 1857.

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,275
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 00:02 BST (UK) »
Firstly weclome to rootschat eharkin1.  :)

A few thoughts:

Sometimes father's names are 'made up' and put on marriage certificates to appear respectable if illegitimate, so Thomas may not actually have been her father.

There may also have been a remarriage and she took stepfather's name, or some other complex scenario.

Although Bessie says she was born in Rotherhithe she may have been born/registered elsewhere - have you broadened the search for her birth to neighbouring areas?

What does she say is her place of birth on the 1901 and 1911 censuses?

Is she consistent with her age on each census? Have you checked for variations of surname as well as first name?

What year did she marry? Do you have her in the censuses prior to 1881, perhaps with her family?

Some births weren't registered.

Ancestry have transcribed her name as Benjamin - and it looks like Benjamin on the census, but I think shanghaipanda is probably correct and it should be Benjamina ...



Offline JonathanC

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 09:33 BST (UK) »
I think the marriage is (via FreeBMD):

Marriages Mar 1888
King  George    West Ham  4a 1   
Ryland  Betsy   W. Ham      4a 1

(fits with age of older child on the 1891)

and I think Rotherhithe would have been in RD 'St Olave Southwark' at the time of her birth.  This would be Surrey, not Kent.

Possible St Olave Southwark births(??):

Births Jun 1868
---------------
BATTLE  Bessie Ellen R     St Olave  1d 41   
BODGER  Benjamin Green     St. Olave  1d 35   
REES  Benjamin     St. Olave  1d 36   

Births Sep 1868
---------------
CAMPBELL  Benjamin Guy     St. Olave  1d 29   
NICHOLS  Beatrice Elizabeth     St. Olave  1d 38   

Births Dec 1868
---------------
HUNT  Benjamin John     St. Olave  1d 34   

Births Mar 1869
---------------
WEEDEN  Benjamin     St. Olave  1d 40   

CRUST - Kent (Kingsnorth, Mersham)
BEATON - Isle of Mull
GODDEN - Ruckinge, Kent

Offline eharkin1

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 21:23 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

firstly thanks for the welcome and thanks for your answers.

I have looked at the following queries and got myself even more confused as the info i have doesnt pinpoint a definete family/birthname.


She says her birth place is Surrey Rotherhithe in 1911 and 1901 so there is no change there.
She is consistent with her age in all census too.

She married in 1888 which is the correct entry as found by JonathanC and she was 19 and a Spinster.

I did consider illegitimate but she states her father as Thomas Ryland  but also has an Emma Ryland signing as a witness with a George Daniels.

I cannot place her in a census prior to her marriage as there isnt a Thomas with an Emma in West Ham, Essex.

I have found a Thomas Ryland (A Coal agent) with a Betsy Ryland in 1871 census in Liverpool, and then with her mother in 1881 under Rylance.

Thomas is not there in 1881 but i cannot place him anywhere down south in West Ham to prove the link with his job to her future husbands job as a Gas Stoker.
Also there is not Emma Ryland in that family.

Im soo confused and was hoping this name might have shed some light.
Carter: herts, peckham
Jacobs: London, Camberwell
Webb: London
Ellis: London
King: Bletchingley, Essex, middlesex
Ryland: Essex, West Ham
Sadler: Essex
Gowers: Essex

Offline mosiefish

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,837
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 21:39 BST (UK) »
Hi,

What was her fathers occupation on her marriage certificate?

Mo
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Lancs: Harrison, Entwistle, Devine, Grundy, Ashworth, Freeman, Jackson, Rushton
Cornwall: Rich, Binney, Peak(e)
Devon: Martin, Walter(s)

Offline eharkin1

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 21:46 BST (UK) »
hi there

Her marriage certificate states he is a Stoker with Foreman in brackets underneath, which is where the link with the family in liverpool ties in.
Carter: herts, peckham
Jacobs: London, Camberwell
Webb: London
Ellis: London
King: Bletchingley, Essex, middlesex
Ryland: Essex, West Ham
Sadler: Essex
Gowers: Essex

Offline mosiefish

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,837
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 22:50 BST (UK) »
Hmm!  This may be nothing, but I may as well post it as I am becoming quite fond of them:

In 1889 an Emma Ryland married George Ernest Holmes in West Ham

1891 census has:

35 Edward Street, West Ham

Thomas Ryland, Head, Widower, 54,  Gas Labourer,  Danbury Essex
George E Holmes, Head, Mar, 22, Gas Labourer, Plaistowe Essex
EMMA Holmes, Wife, Mar, 22, ROTHERHITHE Surrey
Alice Holmes, Daur, 10 months, Plaistowe Essex

Can`t find Thomas and Emma before this - yet

Mo


Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Lancs: Harrison, Entwistle, Devine, Grundy, Ashworth, Freeman, Jackson, Rushton
Cornwall: Rich, Binney, Peak(e)
Devon: Martin, Walter(s)

Offline Eyesee

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,698
    • View Profile
Re: name help to unlock my tree
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 29 June 11 02:27 BST (UK) »
Thomas RYLAND looks to have died Mar qtr 1899, West Ham, 4a 34, aged 61

Ian C
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

CLAPHAM, PARKINSON, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, FURNER All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
CHALKLEY, OLNEY, Hertfordshire
HARRIS, Essex
EDWARDS, York
NOLAN, BERNEY, Kildare