Author Topic: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.  (Read 17588 times)

Offline majm

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:13 BST (UK) »
Hi there Sayonara,

Yes, 1000 words a minute seems to be impossible.  Perhaps you typed up on a word document and then you copy pasted the word document? 

The book I cited is from the editorship of a former NSW BDM chap, and is well regarded. 

Hi there Neil,

Yes, Struth is the word of the day around here too.   My first occupation was as a typiste (note the 'e') and while I was a tad more than 20 wpm,  I was NOT more than 110 wpm.   Even with the modern puter keyboard, (ie lack of need to remove right hand to 'return the carriage manually) I am still no more than around 120 wpm.

Hi there Debra,

I will defer to your VDL knowledge of those Col Sec papers.   But I agree, there's quite a few that the commercial website has NOT uploaded.  And I agree about "The Downs" too.   ;D  ;D (RChat smileys of course)

Cheers,  JM



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Offline Neil Todd

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:17 BST (UK) »
Smiley's only.... ;D no rolling eyes ::) thank you.....

Anonymous ;)
Grewl,Nickerseens,flombastion,Everheads

Offline Dundee

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:03 BST (UK) »
I have found those two documents:

29 March 1816
Request that Flahata, a prisoner employed on "Kangaroo", be paid wages (Reel 6045; 4/1734 p.46)

The name on this document is clearly Chas. FLHUTTE, AB, Prisoner for Life.  He served under the command of JEFFREYS (I think - the signature is hard to read), by order of Lieut. Governor DAVEY
from the 1st or 7th October 1814.

A direct link for anyone who has access
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0v7c/


2 Apr 1816
Re victualling of on board "Kangaroo" (Reel 6045; 4/1734 pp.52-3)


This is furthur hoo ha about whether or not JEFFREYS was given permission to employ a prisoner as crew.  He enclosed a copy of the order from the Lieut. Governor dated 1814.
 
A direct link for anyone who has access
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0v7d/

From minimal research, it appears that after the Kangaroo arrived in the Colony in January 1814 they moved back and forth between Sydny, Norfolk Island and Tasmania as well as at least one trip to Ceylon in 1816 where they brought back convicts from Colombo.

May I suggest that there's many official records from the convict era that were lost in the 1870s, and these may well include many of the pre 1826 applications to marry that required the Governor's approval.

Cheers,  JM

As far as I am aware, the only documents relating to permission to marry in that early period will be found amongst the Col. Sec.'s Papers, where they survive.  As JM said, many official records have been lost.  From the State Archives re Permission to Marry Registers: "The first permission to marry recorded in these registers was granted on 6 January 1826, and the first refusal on 9 June 1826."

Has anyone looked at the marriage entry in the Church register to see if it provides any extra info on the groom?  The marriage took place on 31 March 1816, and the Kangaroo was in Sydney harbour on 16 March and still there on 30 March.

Debra  :)


Offline keinname

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:08 BST (UK) »
Yes, not only can I type at 13,000 words a minute, but I can also instantly transcribe historical documents. ROFLMAO  ;D

While researching this topic I had looked for alternative spelling of Fluerty in the Colonial Secretary’s Index and had completely missed "Flahata".  :-\ Thanks Dundee for the references – they sure explain a lot.

So Charles was definitely in Sydney in March 1816. This would have allowed him to marry Mary Griggs in Sydney on 21 Mar 1816.
(I am assuming that the 1818 on the BDM NSW index is a transcription error.)


(Yes this is the contrary position to my earlier post as the evidence that Dundee has posted speaks for itself. My previous statement about 2 Charles Fluertys in 1818 was also incorrect.)

It is also true as others have already said that not all convict permissions to marry have survived. All that is really missing was Mary’s name on the passenger’s list of the “Kangaroo” back to Hobart but this may have been because she was the wife of a crew-member, or she may have travelled to Hobart on a different ship.

Re: 1/2 April 1816 - Re prisoners being landed and delivered to Hutchinson; appears as Flhutte (Reel 6004; 4/3494 pp.424, 429)
* The letter numbered 424 of 1 April 1816 says in part that Charles Flhutte(sic) had been allowed to work on the “Kangaroo” from “the Derwent (that is Hobart) by permission of His Honor Lt Govn Davey”.
and as Dundee said
Quote
"it is improper that Prisoners of the Crown, more properly called convicts ;D should be employed in a service whereby they might easily effect their escape...."
* The letter numbered 429 of 2 April says in part “No question was made in Regard to Flhutte or Flahatu having been received by You in Compliance with the Orders of Lieut. Govn. Davey at Hobart Town.”

By employing Charles on the “Kangaroo” they were taking advantage of his skills as a sailor from his former life in the British Navy. (We also know that he was on the whaling ship in 1832. Mmm, I wonder if he was the coxswain at Port Arthur in 1841? This would make sense despite his age, and would leave the death in 1835 to possibly be of his son.)

So Charles was indeed on the “Kangaroo” from Sydney to Hobart in April 1816 (when he was landed to serve in that capacity no longer), but even more so that he had first joined the crew of the “Kangaroo” in Hobart. I wonder when he first joined the crew? The only time could have been August 1814 when the Kangaroo was last in Hobart.

From the Colonial Secretary’s Index the following is revealed for the “Kangaroo”:
1814 Aug – Hobart (Gee whiz, 1 of my children’s ancestors, a soldier, was on the ship then – he would have met Charles!)
1815 Feb – Sydney (via Launceston)
1815 c.Jul to 1816 Feb – voyage to and from Ceylon
1816 Feb – Sydney
1816 Mar – Newcastle
1816 Mar – Sydney
1816 Apr – Hobart
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/k/F30c_ka-ke-01.htm#P402_15862

So with the date of the marriage of Mary Griggs to Charles Fluty as 21 Mar 1816 in Sydney at St Phillips Church was at a time when indeed the “Kangaroo” was in Sydney after its return from Newcastle. Charles would have had opportunity to meet Mary Griggs between Feb and c.Jul 1815, and also visit with her for a short time in February 1816, and of course in the short time in March 1816 in which they got married.

Quote
May I simply note that during the Governorship of Lachlan Macquarie, the parish registers for St Phillips Church, Sydney Town include TRANSMITTED records of baptisms, burials and marriages conducted ELSEWHERE in New South Wales, and by clergy who were not Anglicans.

majm are you sure of this? My understanding was that the parish register only contained the births deaths and marriage for that parish, which in this case was the Anglican parish of St Phillips, and only for services performed under the rites of the Church of England. Also in my understanding there were no changes to this during the time of Macquarie. In fact none of the very good and useful references that you quoted from the NSW state archives substantiate what you have said. I would have to disagree with the proposal that a 1818 (or 1816) marriage could be recorded in the parish register for St Phillips where the marriage was celebrated by a clergyman who was NOT an Anglican, and/ or where the marriage had been celebrated in VDL.

Offline keinname

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:12 BST (UK) »
Quote
A direct link for anyone who has access
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0v7c/

Dundee, do you think that the AB against Charles name on the above document means that they employed him on the ship as an able-seaman?

Offline Dundee

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:31 BST (UK) »
Yes, the letter mentions their "quality", so I think AB would be Able Seaman.

FamilySearch says the marriage was in 1816 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-N98

What a name to try to research  ::)  On the 1820 muster he was FLAGHUTE.

Debra  :)

Offline majm

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:48 BST (UK) »
Hi

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-5/short-guide-5  Mary Griggs application to marry is NOT listed on the Index to the abstract of all licences for marriage granted to free persons 17 March 1813-26 Dec 1827.   So, if it was Charles FLHUTTE who married Mary Ann GRIGGS, then likely only ONE chap, and not two by that name in the then territory of NSW.   

Please accept my apology if I am duplicating any info already posted, but I noticed the following (while looking for the marriage ….. and from the red post, It has been found HURRAY  ;D my OH says the book say 1816 too )
 Baptism of Mary Ann Griggs with father as John Hunt LUCAS and mother as Sarah GRIGGS.  Mary Ann born 28 March 1798, and Baptised 22 April 1798.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-54Y   

I asked my OH to look through the book by Mr Donohue .  (I cited it earlier) …. In that book the surname is transcribed as FLAHARTY.
My OH assures me that the book shows that Charles FLAHARTY ex the Indefatigible married Mary Ann GRIGGS, and that there’s mention of St Philips, Sydney. So I am not sure how the surname would be transcribed for the familysearch records at all, but I do know that most of those Early Church Records at St Philips are transcribed on the familysearch.org  website.

Cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 05:56 BST (UK) »

majm are you sure of this? My understanding was that the parish register only contained the births deaths and marriage for that parish, which in this case was the Anglican parish of St Phillips, and only for services performed under the rites of the Church of England. Also in my understanding there were no changes to this during the time of Macquarie. In fact none of the very good and useful references that you quoted from the NSW state archives substantiate what you have said. I would have to disagree with the proposal that a 1818 (or 1816) marriage could be recorded in the parish register for St Phillips where the marriage was celebrated by a clergyman who was NOT an Anglican, and/ or where the marriage had been celebrated in VDL.

Yes, quite sure.    You will note that Gov Macquarie required all clergy to transmit records to the NSW Chaplains.  The General Orders were published in the Sydney Gazette which is digitised at Trove.    My statement re the records that St Philips holds is something that I have "known" basically ALL my life.   However, it is one of those lesser known items within family history circles.   I am pleased to note that the book I cited notes the fact that St Philips register is not just for  Anglican rites.  May I commend the several books by Mr Donohue to you.

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline ~MERLIN~

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 06:08 BST (UK) »

majm are you sure of this? My understanding was that the parish register only contained the births deaths and marriage for that parish, which in this case was the Anglican parish of St Phillips, and only for services performed under the rites of the Church of England. Also in my understanding there were no changes to this during the time of Macquarie. In fact none of the very good and useful references that you quoted from the NSW state archives substantiate what you have said. I would have to disagree with the proposal that a 1818 (or 1816) marriage could be recorded in the parish register for St Phillips where the marriage was celebrated by a clergyman who was NOT an Anglican, and/ or where the marriage had been celebrated in VDL.

Yes, quite sure.    You will note that Gov Macquarie required all clergy to transmit records to the NSW Chaplains.  The General Orders were published in the Sydney Gazette which is digitised at Trove.    My statement re the records that St Philips holds is something that I have "known" basically ALL my life.   However, it is one of those lesser known items within family history circles.   I am pleased to note that the book I cited notes the fact that St Philips register is not just for  Anglican rites.  May I commend the several books by Mr Donohue to you.


JM, would you like me to check my cousin JHD's books for you?