Author Topic: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.  (Read 17586 times)

Offline woofiewaffles

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 07 July 13 15:36 BST (UK) »
I am a descendant of John Joseph Fluerty who settled in Akaroa, in the South Island of New Zealand. His mother Mary Ann Griggs according to our info was deported to Norfolk Island for reputedly stealing a speckled apron from her employer. She survived the Norfolk Island colony and settled in Australia.

John Joseph Flutey- his first wife died. He married again to Merehana Puha.
Our lot originated from the South Island and settled in Otaki in the North Island of NZ.

above information is not quite correct - Sarah Griggs was convicted of stealing a speckled/spotted apron in the kent assizes and eventually sent to NSW, aboard the neptune as part of the second fleet.  Her daughter Mary Ann griggs was born through a liason with one of two men, Capt John Townsend or ensign James Lucas Hunt.  All of Sarahs children were educated by Capt Townsend  who seemed to maintain an interest.  Mary Ann Griggs married Charles fluerty  - he was a convict who had been convicted in Ireland and was originally from either France or Italy.  One of their sons John Flutey worked on whaling ships from an early age and ended up in New Zealand.  To our knowledge Mereana Puaha was his first wife, but following her death he married Phoebe Howland.  I believe there may also have been a third wife.  Woul be very interested to know if there was a prior wife though so please message me information if you can.  cheers  Ruth

Offline keinname

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #10 on: Monday 08 July 13 13:44 BST (UK) »
Apologising in advance for a post that disagrees with fondly held family history for some of the descendants of Charles Fluerty.

As a keen student of Australian History I find Charles Fluerty’s story fascinating:
http://foundersandsurvivors.org/pubsearch/convict/chain/c31a31130018
http://www.fleurtys.com.au/about_chas_fleurty.html#_ftn21

Charles arrived on the “Indefatigable” in Hobart on 19 October 1812. Apparently this was the first transport to take convicts from England direct to Van Diemens Land.

There exists a list of convicts transported on the “Indefatigable” in the British Home Office Records. This record in the Australian Convict Transportation Registers – Other Fleets & Ships, 1791-1868, Microfilm Roll 87, Class and Piece Number HO11/2, begins:
Account of Convicts delivered on board the Indefatigable and Mistral on or about the 9th Day of May 1812 to be Transported to the Coast of New South Wales or some one or other of the Islands adjacent.
Charles Fluerty’s record is a part of a list of Court Martials at the end of this record. His individual record reads:
Pierre Charles Flaherte als Francis Quec als Quce, do Monmouth “ , 30 January 1812, Life
In the above als is an abbreviation of alias, do is an abbreviation of ditto, and “ is used as a place marker. The do (ditto) is under the words Court Martial. Charles’s record is immediately below that of Tryce Okey which reads
" do " Gladiator Portsmouth, 29 October  1811 Life
It is Tryce’s record that explains what Charles’ record means. Tyrce was court martialed whilst he was serving aboard the “Gladiator” whilst the “Gladiator” was anchored at Portsmouth, whilst in contrast Charles was court martialed whilst he was serving aboard the “Monmouth” but does not tell us where the ship was anchored at the time.
( 2 websites which have got their information from the same source. Note both Flaherte, Pierre Charles and Okey, Tryce:
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/ships/indefatigable-and-minstrel/1812
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/twconvic/Indefatigable+1812 )

Charles appears on the 1822 muster of NSW (Van Diemens Land was then part of NSW). On a list of convicts then in Van Diemens Land his individual record reads:
Charles Fleurty, Cond(itiona)l pardon, Indefatigable, Cross (Master/Captain of ship), 1812 (date of arrival), Life (sentence), in the Downs (place), 1810 (when), 2 (male children), 1 (female children)

An identical record appears on Charles’ individual conduct record held in Tasmania, on which his first Colonial offence recorded is dated July 19, 1821, is titled:
Fleurty Chas, Indefatigable 1812, In the Downs 1810, Life
and adds in the margin
G C 13 Nov 1833, 7 years
which was a subsequent Colonial conviction received in Hobart.
http://foundersandsurvivors.org//pubsearch-xsl/image/viewer.html?CON31-1-13,188,12

These last 2 records, the 1822 muster and Charles’ conduct record do not agree with the earlier record from when he was delivered to the Indefatigable in England in that the subsequent Tasmanian lists record that he was tried in 1810, while the original British Record is that he was tried on 30 January 1812. This appears to be the only mistake in the record as it is very possible that Charles was tried while the “Monmouth” was anchored in the Downs as the “Monmouth” was the flag-ship of the Commander of the Downs (see below). What exactly was “the Downs”? It was an area in the sea off the east coast of Kent, and near to the port of Deal, where ships anchored. It was a gathering point and permanent base for warships.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Downs

A misreading of the conduct record has led at least one historian to write that Charles was convicted at County Down, Northern Ireland, for 7 years. 
http://www.fleurtys.com.au/about_chas_fleurty.html
The mistake that Charles was convicted in Ireland is also repeated by the previous poster.

A reading of the documents shows that Charles was serving in the British Navy as a sailor aboard the “Monmouth” when he was court martialed while the ship was anchored in the Downs off the east coast of Kent and he received a sentence of transportation for Life on 30 January 1812. The HMS Monmouth was a 64-gun third-rate sailed by the British Navy between 1796 and 1815. In January 1812 the time Monmouth was the flagship of Vice-Admiral George Campbell, Commander-in-Chief of the Downs station.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Monmouth
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Monmouth_%281796%29

A reading of the above documents also shows that Charles was known as Pierre Charles Flaherte at the time of his conviction, but also had an alias of Francis Quec or Quce.

An investigation of the Military records held in Britain may reveal more about Charles in his time before he was transported, and more about his conviction.

(Continued in next post)




Offline keinname

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #11 on: Monday 08 July 13 13:49 BST (UK) »
(Continued from previous post)

In the 1822 muster it was recorded that Charles had 3 surviving children, 2 boys and 1 girl. The first 2 posters in this thread name instead 4 children born to 1822 for whom no birth records exist:
1) Charles c1816
2) Adeline c1818
3) Joseph c1820
4) John c1821
With a 5th child Elizabeth born about 1825 and dying on 28 Jan 1826 (#1146).

That the daughter Adeline existed comes at least from the marriage of Adeline Fluerty to George Atcheson in Hobart on 22 Nov 1837 (#3800).

That the son Joseph existed comes at least from his record of marriage and children as outlined in the previous posts.

That the son John existed is attested to by the previous poster who wrote:
One of their sons John Flutey worked on whaling ships from an early age and ended up in New Zealand
and another poster who wrote
I am a descendant of John Joseph Fluerty who settled in Akaroa, in the South Island of New Zealand.

That the son Charles may have existed may be attested by one of the 2 following references:
(1) There is a Charles Fluerty listed as being employed as a coxswain (person in charge of a boat) in the Commandant’s Department, Port Arthur in 1841
(Archives Office of Tasmania, General index
http://www.fleurtys.com.au/about_chas_fleurty.html#_ftn12)

when Charles himself was in his 70s and his son Charles, if he existed, was in his early 20s,
or perhaps
(2) the earlier death in Hobart of a Charles Fluty on 10 June 1835 (#4083)
(Unless one or both of these records is neither Charles nor his son but is for different Charles Fluertys altogether.)
If the son Charles did exist then either the son John was born after the details were taken for the 1822 Muster which suggests that a date of birth from the poster who began this thread of 9 Apr 1821 is too early; or alternatively the record of 2 sons & 1 daughter on the 1822 muster is incorrect.

Charles’ wife’s name is known to be Mary, and this is evidenced from her name being recorded on Charles’ conduct record on 22 Feb 1832 and from her death record in Hobart on 1 Oct 1839 (#89). 

The poster who began this thread said that Charles married Mary Griggs in Sydney on 21 Mar 1816, and this marriage to Mary Griggs is agreed to by 2 of the subsequent posters.

However, if Charles arrived on the “Indefatigable” in 1812 which went straight to Hobart Town, would not Charles have been in Tasmania continually from his arrival 1812 until his death in 1842*? Does it not appear that the idea that Charles married Mary Griggs is incorrect? And was not their first son Charles, if he did exist, born in Tasmania as were the other children?

(* except for 1832-33 when according to the historian Kathy Evans he was employed as a crew member on the whaling ship Hetty when his voyages included trips to the whaling grounds and Sydney. [Archives office of Tasmania, Shipping Departures Index]
http://www.fleurtys.com.au/about_chas_fleurty.html#_ftn12 )


If Charles arrived on the “Indefatigable” in 1812 which went straight to Hobart Town, how could he have been on the “Kangaroo” from Sydney to Tasmania in April or December 1816?
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~austashs/convicts/conships_k.htm
Thanks to my ancestry.com subscription I have been able to check the below documents and Charles was not on the list of 100 male and female convicts transported to Hobart in Apr 1816, and his wife was not on the list of passengers. He was also not on the list of convicts transported in Dec 1816.
Colonial Secretaries Index 1788-1825
“Kangaroo”. Brig
* 1816 Apr 10 List of 100 male and female convicts embarked on for the Derwent (Reel 6004; 4/3494 p.461)
* 1816 Apr 12 Passengers to embark for Hobart on (Reel 6004; 4/3494 p.454)
* 1816 Dec 16 List of convicts to be sent to the Derwent on (Reel 6005; 4/3495 p.382
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/k/F30c_ka-ke-01.htm#P402_15862


Even more, if Charles arrived on the “Indefatigable” in 1812 which went straight to Hobart Town, how could he have been in Sydney marrying Mary Griggs in 1818 at St Phillips?
V18181900 3A/1818, FLUTY CHARLES, GRIGGS MARY, CA (Index on BDM NSW)
And as a serving convict, where is the permission to marry?

(It appears that the “Kangaroo” was chosen as it travelled from Sydney to Hobart in 1816 without the passenger and convict lists having being checked, after first a transcription error which changed the date of the potential marriage from 1818 to 1816.)

The wife of Charles cannot be Mary Griggs but is Mary Unknown. She is also referred to only as Mary with no maiden surname in the document by the historian Kathy Evans.
http://www.fleurtys.com.au/about_chas_fleurty.html#_ftn21

That then leaves the problem of who was the Charles Fluty who did marry Mary Griggs in 1818 in Sydney? That at this point is unknown, but proves that there were at least 2 adult Charles Fluertys in the Colony of New South Wales (which included Van Diemens Land) in 1818.

[The above transcriptions are all the work of this poster.]


Offline keinname

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #12 on: Monday 08 July 13 13:57 BST (UK) »
More information on Charles Fluerty:

In the 1822 muster Charles Fluerty is recorded as in receipt of a Conditional Pardon.

Then according to his conduct record in Tasmania Charles committed the following Colonial Offences:
July 19 1821 CE / Drunk & dis(orderl)y & break(in)g the peace to pay a fine of 5/-
Oct(obe)r 9 1822 CE / Selling Spirits with(ou)t license – to pay the mitigated penalty of £10
July 18 1829 TS / Com(mitte)d for trial on susp(icio)n of steal(in)g Govt Timber at the Sawing Establishm(en)t at Birhes Bay – aft(er)w(ar)ds admitted to Bail
June 10 1830 TS / Creating an affray on the Public Wharf at Hobart Town by fighting with Jno(John) Steward on the 15th of last month. Ord(ere)d to f(or)w(ar)d sureties of the peace for three months
Sep(embe)r 17 1831 CE / Drunk(enne)ss fined 5/-
Sep(embe)r 19 1831 CE / Assaulting his wife. Ord(ere)d to f(or)w(ar)d sureties to keep the peace &c(etc)
Oct(obe)r 15 1831 CE / Drunk(enne)ss last night [fined 5/- crossed out] Reprimanded
Feb(ruar)y 22 1832 CE / Assaulting & beating Mary his wife who hath prayed Sureties of the Peace. Ordered to f(or)w(ar)d Sureties of the Peace 3 Mo(nth)s
Aug(us)t 31 1833 CE / Drunk fined 5/-
Oct(obe)r 19 1833 CE / St(ealin)g Seven Hundred Weight of Salt of the Goods &c(etc) of Mrs Fanny Kelly and Thomas Lucas, Comm(itte)d for Trial
Oct(obe)r 23 1833 admitted to Bail for his appearance at the next General Gaol Delivery of the Sup(erintendan)t Co(ur)t, six preceding offences
(In Margin) GC 13 Nov 1833 7 Years
Oct(obe)r 15 1836 Bastian / Improper conduct, disch(arge)d
Oct(obe)r 27 1836 Bastian / Neglect of duty & repeated drunkenness, hard labor out of ch(ain)s for 3 Months / Spring Hill R(oa)d p(ar)ty Vide Lieut(enant) Gov(erno)rs Decis(io)n 12th Nov(embe)r 1836
Feb(ruar)y 22 1837 Messd Murdock / Disob(edien)ce of orders Cells on B(read) & Water 48 hours
April 24 1837 Murdock / Out after hours & presenting himself  to be free, Cells on B(read) & Water 7 days
May 23 1837 Murdock / Absent without leave Admon(ishe)d & ret(urne)d to an assign(e)d P(ar)ty
June 23 1837 Rhodes / Absconding & losing and making away with 17/- of his Masters property, hard labor in Chains 9 Months / Grass Tree Hill C(hai)n Gang & conduct to be rev(iewe)d Vide Lieut(enant) Gov(erno)rs Decis(io)n 19 July 1837 Penitentiary Hobart for assign(nmen)t Vide Mem(oria)l Col  ==== 1772
April 30 1838 ===Party /  ===== ==== == ===== == ====
October 9 1838 Marine Dept / Drunk, T(read) Wheel 5 days
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1333759/treadwheel
Nov(embe)r 1st 1838 Marine Dept / Absent from duty without leave, Sal confinement on B(read) & W(ater) for 3 days
April 18 1839 Marine Dept / Absent from Barracks all nght, 5 days Cell on B(read) & W(ater)
May 16 1839 M Dept / Absent from ==== ===
June 24 1839 M Dept / Drunk & absent from his duty - Hard labour with chains 3 Months ==/ Confirmed S(pring) Hill R(oa)d  P(ar)ty threw(sic) Oatlands for ass(i)g(nmen)t vide L(ieutenant) G(overnor’s) Decision 26 June 1839.
His excellency has granted this Man a remission of his Col(onial) sentence and to be returned to his Conditional Pardon Vide Orders of = =
18.3.(18)34 Bridg(e)w(or)k, 7.7.(18)36 C H, 5.11.(18)35 N(ew) N(orfolk), 20.11.(18)36 C P U, 27.8.(18)37 C Hill ==, 14.2.(18)40 ==
http://foundersandsurvivors.org//pubsearch-xsl/image/viewer.html?CON31-1-13,188,12

On the 1841 muster Charles appears as:
Charles Fluerty, Indefatigable, Free Pardon

The above transcriptions are all the work of this poster.

Many abbreviations were used in the original of the Conduct Record and sections in ( ) have been added into the text for understanding. Where the abbreviation is unknown to this poster it has not been expanded. == has been used where this poster was unable to transcribe that section. Letters representing the names of the men who made the various decisions have been omitted from the transcription.

Offline majm

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 00:36 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

May I simply note that during the Governorship of Lachalan Macquarie, the parish registers for St Phillips Church, Sydney Town include TRANSMITTED records of baptisms, burials and marriages conducted ELSEWHERE in New South Wales, and by clergy who were not Anglicans. 

So Mary Griggs 1818 (or 1816  ;D) marriage may have been celebrated by a clergyman who was NOT an Anglican and it may have been celebrated in VDL, which was definitely part of NSW in 1818.   That clergyman has likely then TRANSMITTED his record to St Phillips where the Rev Cowper was the Anglican minister.  Rec Cowper was one of the NSW Chaplains appointed by Gov. Macquarie.   St Phillips register is extant.

May I suggest the following links:
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-7
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/short-guide-2
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4

May I suggest the following book:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21508990

May I suggest that there's many official records from the convict era that were lost in the 1870s, and these may well include many of the pre 1826 applications to marry that required the Governor's approval.


Cheers,  JM

EDIT TO ADD :
That then leaves the problem of who was the Charles Fluty who did marry Mary Griggs in 1818 in Sydney? That at this point is unknown, but proves that there were at least 2 adult Charles Fluertys in the Colony of New South Wales (which included Van Diemens Land) in 1818.

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Offline Dundee

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:04 BST (UK) »
I believe the reason for thinking that Charles F. went to Tasmania on the Kangaroo is because of this reference in the Col. Sec.'s Papers:

FLAHATA, Charles
Prisoner to Van Diemen's Land as crew, "Kangaroo"

29 March 1816
Request that Flahata, a prisoner employed on "Kangaroo", be paid wages (Reel 6045; 4/1734 p.46)

2 Apr 1816
Re victualling of on board "Kangaroo" (Reel 6045; 4/1734 pp.52-3)

1/2 April 1816
Re prisoners being landed and delivered to Hutchinson; appears as Flhutte (Reel 6004; 4/3494 pp.424, 429)

http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/

I am still trying to locate the first two documents referenced (the subscription site only indexes some of the documents, which of course makes the others impossible to find as they have run all the microfilm images together), however the others are not clear as to how long this person had been onboard the Kangaroo and possibly had come to Sydney from Tasmania.

The last document states that he should not be serving as crew onboard the Kangaroo as "it is improper that Prisoners of the Crown, more properly called convicts  ;D should be employed in a service whereby they might easily effect their escape...."

The smiley face is mine, I don't think the Col. Sec. had a sense of humour.

Debra  :)

Offline Neil Todd

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:04 BST (UK) »
STRUTH :o between 13.44 and 13.57 yesterday KEINNAME or Freckly or whatever TYPED about 13,000 words  :o That's like 1,000 words a minute....phew and here's me at about 20wpm. I lose :'( :'( :'(

 ;) Neil  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Grewl,Nickerseens,flombastion,Everheads

Offline Dundee

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:08 BST (UK) »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

20 wpm?  Well you would beat me  ;D

Debra  :)

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Re: FLUERTY/FLUTEY - help needed please.
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 09 July 13 01:11 BST (UK) »
Also just mentioning that many people confuse "The Downs" with Co. Down in Ireland.  Knowledge of the geographical terminology of the times comes with experience.

Debra  :)