Isabella MURRAY nee SCOT

[warwickb]

Annette and Gan Yam

Thank you for that information - very helpful and much appreciated.

A couple of other questions which I'm hoping for assistance to answer please - is anyone else able to help?
Is there any record of Isabella in the Holy Trinity burial records?
Holy Trinity Church no longer exists and the grounds appear to be a park - are there any memorials still existing (not that I'm expecting one for Richard and Isabella) or plot information?

I always think its a nice to share some of the family background to these requests.

Isabella's death in 1841 is therefore likely before her youngest son Robert left Carlisle, as he married Catherine Elizabeth Jeffery in London in March 1842 (his wife was already pregnant as the boy was born shortly before they left) then emigrating from England to NZ leaving 27th July 1842 from Gravesend. He was employed to look after the Hon. Henry Petre's thoroughbred racehorses on the journey.

Richard probably died without knowing whether had Robert arrived in NZ as the ship Thomas Sparks only reached Wellington on 31 Jan 1843 after a horrendous voyage. Unfortunately his young grandson died the first day into the voyage.

On arrival in Wellington Robert set up as a Saddler and had the Governor Sir George Grey as one of his clients. He and Catherine had six more children.

Richard and Isabella had seven children and I've only managed to account for 2 of them.
- Mary bapt 1 Feb 1806 Arthuret
- John bapt 22 Apr 1808 Arthuret - 6 June 1842 ??
- William bapt 22 Apr 1808 Arthuret  (rumour that he emigrated to Australia)
- James bapt 2 May 1808 Arthuret
- Isabella bapt 7 June 1812 Arthuret
- Jane bapt 30 Jun 1814 Arthuret
- Robert bapt 23 June 1816 Arthuret died 1 July 1865 Wellington NZ


Thank you again Annette and Gan Yam for your assistance.

Regards
Warwick

[Gan Yam]

There is a record on family search for a Isabella Armstrong being buried at Holy Trinity Church on 12th Aug 1841.

Holy Trinity Church was knocked down a few years ago, and the site is used by the school at the back of it. The gravestones were moved to the back of the plot.  There are a couple of rows of them, but I'm not sure they will be readable.  A lot of older gravestones are made from sandstone and they don't always weather very well. Cumbria Archives may have some details of the gravestone inscription, I'll check if there are any for Holy Trinity, when I'm next there if you want?

[warwickb]

Thank you Gan Yam - again most helpful.
Yes please - if you can check for any Holy Trinity subscriptions involving Armstrong that would be much appreciated. I have been to the Cumbria Archives back in 1996 when I was there in Carlisle but its a bit difficult to get there from Wellington NZ!

I'm wondering of any of the other Armstrong children are there... especially as John appears to pre-decease his father in 1842.

Thanks again
Regards
Warwick
 

[Gan Yam]

Long journey from New Zealand.   Archives have changed since 1996, they now have a new purpose built building and no longer in the castle.

There is a burial for a John Armstrong 6 Jan 1837 at Holy Trinity Church - maybe this is the Isabella and Richard's son.

added: just checked again and there is quite a few John Armstrongs buried in Holy Trinity!! in the late 1830's and early 1840's - actual records might give more information.

[warwickb]

That's an interesting thought, though being 1837 there is unlikely to be a Civil Regn. - I had just found the John who died 1842 on Family Search which shows buried at Dalton Road.   My family tree record is unsourced for 1842 so will need to get the Death certificate to unvalidate that.

Name   John Armstrong
Event Type   Burial
Event Date   1842
Event Place   Carlisle, City of Carlisle, Cumbria, England
Photograph Included   N
Death Date   06 Jun 1842
Affiliate Record Identifier   137743430
Cemetery   Carlisle Dalton Road Cemetery

BUT also on Family Search  two other John Armstrong's at Holy Trinity....  do the Church registers show the ages?

John Armstrong
England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991

burial:   6 April 1838   Holy Trinity Church, Carlisle, Cumberland, England      

John Armstrong
England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991

burial:   22 March 1838   Holy Trinity Church, Carlisle, Cumberland, England   

Cheers
Warwick

[Gan Yam]

GRO index is showing:
John Armstrong died March quarter 1838 was 42.
John Armstrong died June Quarter 1838 was 2 and also another John Armstrong June Quarter 1838 aged 4.

As I said before the John Armstrong listed as being buried in Dalston Road Cemetery (also called Richardson Street Cemetery) in 1842 is likely to more of a  memorial as this is Carlisle's main cemetery and it didn't open until 1855.

The GRO index is showing John Armstrong died June quarter 1842 was 34.
There at least 4 other names on this gravestone. The other names are James Armstrong - died 15/10/1867, Elizabeth died 23/6/1890, William died 3/11/1871 and Isabella 2/1/1844 (again this is likely to be more of an inscription).

I'll check the registers and let you know what I find.

[warwickb]

Gan Yam
Hi again - end of day here and just able to focus again on your last post...
That is a very interesting headstone...  the death of John matches his age.... and the other names of James, William and Isabella match well. Only Elizabeth doesn't fit but may be a wife of William or James if this was a family grave.
It will be interesting what the registers show.

Thank you again for your interest - very much appreciated.
Nga mihi (regards in Maori)
Warwick

[Gan Yam]

Hi
I checked the records for John Armstrong and here is the information I’ve found
John buried 6/1/1837 18mth old and lived in Willowholme
John buried 6/4/1838 18mths and lived in Queen Street
John buried 22/3/1838 aged 42 and lived in Prince’s Street.
There was no further information on the burial records. There were some gravestone inscriptions at the back of the parish records but nothing for Armstrong.   

Information re: John who died on 6/6/1842 mentioned on the Carlisle Cemetery Grave (grave ref no 3 G 120)
He is buried in St Cuthbert’s Church Yard and he lived in St Cuthbert’s Lane as was 33 when he died.  Isabella died 2/1/1844 aged 2, is his daughter and is also in St Cuthbert’s Church yard.  The following are in the Carlisle Cemetery grave:
James died 15/10/67 aged 35 was John's son and was a corporal in Carlisle Artillery Volunteers
William died 3/11/71 aged 37 was his son and died in Workington
John George Downey died 3/3/1900 aged 28 in Liverpool and was the son of George and Mary Jane Downey and was John Armstrong’s grandson.
Elizabeth Armstrong died 23/6/1890 aged 80 at 51 Scotch Street and was John Armstrong’s wife.
Lily Downey 30/3/1905 aged 28 daughter of George and Mary Jane Downey of Warwick Road, Carlisle.

As I was looking at St Cuthbert’s parish records I checked the marriage entry for Richard Armstrong and Isabella Murray as mentioned in your original post. Apologies if you already have this information.  Isabella is recorded in both the marriage entry and the banns as being a spinster of this parish.  There is no mention of her having a previous name or being a widow. The witnesses for the marriage were Isabell Armstrong and Hannah Murray.

Hope the info is of some use and if you want anything else checked let me know.

[warwickb]

Thank you Gan Yam - you're very helpful and it is much appreciated.

I've taken a look at Ancestry and I think we may be onto something in tracking down John.... I've never been able to track any of Richard and Isabella's children (except my 2g grandfather) given the common nature of the surname and this is looking most promising.
John and Elizabeth are listed in the 1841C with their three children James, William and Mary which I would expect given the deaths and ages. He is a 'Taylor'.

I then found Elizabeth in 1851C with James, William, Frances and Mary Jane. She is a dressmaker and William is  Drapers assistant. Begins to fit. Still need to track down the elder daughter Frances in 1841C.

What would be helpful is to track down his marriage which I suspect is John Armstrong m Elizabeth Batey 4 Sept 1830 at St Cuthberts and to see if any other names are mentioned.

This marriage is claimed to several family trees on Ancestry but they are not well sourced and I suspect may be wrong.

Regarding the Isabella Murray nee Scot I will have to dig out my early Armstrong papers to see where that came from. It was information I was given some time ago and it could well be wrong - always keep an open mind on these things as I've never worked out the first marriage if she was.

Lastly if it is Elizabeth Batey then

Name:   Elizabeth Baty
Gender:   Female
Baptism Date:   21 Jul 1811
Baptism Place:   Saint Cuthbert,Carlisle,Cumberland,England
Father:   John Baty
Mother:   Elizabeth Mitchell
FHL Film Number:   90578

This one is an interesting search for me - so thank you again for your help.
Regards
Warwick