Grace KEAST

[JaneyCanuck]

Oh, right, I was just in the middle of composing a post to say: wait, mine must be Elizabeth Coumbe, because

Sibly + Kingdon were 1761
Sibly + Coumbe were 1768

and my Sam's kids started being born in 1769 (assuming they were all kids of Coumbe?).

Best guess for Elizabeth Coumbe --
Eliz Combe, Aug 1748 (William and Sarah) ?

to go with
Samuel Sibly, Sep 1734 (Thomas and Mary) ?

So Samuel Sibly the parish clerk who witnessed his last marriage in Aug 1787 was not my Sam??

I don't want to know this. I liked being descended from a parish clerk and "a worthy man"!

Actually, I'd oriignally thought it would have been funny if I'd discovered that he was married to Mary who died Mary Sibly shortly afer, "an excellent woman & great sufferer". I suspect that a woman married to such a worthy man might indeed have had to be a great sufferer.

So my sam died ... 1804? And Elizabeth ... 1830, aged 82, widow, in Warleggon?
-- yes, perfect match for:
Eliz Combe, Aug 1748 (William and Sarah)

But for Sam Sib births in St Cleer, we have only
1715 (Nicholas and Mary)
1734 (Thomas and Mary)

Perhaps the Sam who married Kingdon was beyond childbearing age?

Sam Sib the parish clerk first appears in 1754, the year that witnesses are first recorded. So it makes sense that he was already parish clerk, and thus not likely born in 1734 ...
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cricket5/downloads/STC_Marriages.csv


edit -- but I'm still not catching your drift here (I do recall you as a woman of few words ...!):

As you say no burial for Elizabeth or daughter Mary.
That Mary seems to go on and marry a Samuel Kingdon - possibly a cousin as Elizabeth was a Kingdon prior to marriage.

You know somehow that Kingdon/Sibly had a daughter Mary? I see only one Mary, bap 27 Nov 1770, who fits in between Samuel Jan 1769 and Elizabeth 1772. I don't understand what you're saying about a burial for daughter Mary ...

EDIT -- I gotcha - I was missing seeing the Mary Sibly born 1763 to Samuel and Eliz therefore Elizabeth Kingdon -- which Mary Sibly went on to marry, therefore didn't die in childhood, therefore the later children who include a Mary belong to Elizabeth Coumbe.

[JaneyCanuck]

finnisfinder:

Going back a bit, can you tell me which Samuel married Joan Borrow 13th Feb 1726 at St Cleer? Was he born 1705 s/o Thomas and Peternel. Also was he b/o Elizabeth who married Henry Borrow?

Don's St Cleer transcriptions don't show a Sam Sib born 1705 -- Tho and Pet had children Elizabeth 1698 and Peternel 1700, per his site and the general OPC database.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cricket5/stc_baptisms_q-s.htm

There is a Samuel Sybly, son of Thomas and Jane, 1705. They also had Jane and Richard.



Oh no, ff! Your OP says your Rich Sib married Grace Keast in 1699. And Don had this to say about St Cleer records:

"The original parish records prior to 1677 appear to have been lost but the Bishops Transcripts (an annual return that the cleric was required to make) exist for 1597-1673. Hence if you are looking for anything prior to 1597 or between 1673 & 1677 then you will not find the records here - or anywhere else!"

And isn't that just about exactly when your Richard and Grace might have been born??

Here is his chronological listing of St Cleer baptisms:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cricket5/downloads/STC_Baptisms.csv

On the Keast side, we unfortunately have two possible famliies:

Robert 1663
Wiliam 1665
Peter 1668
Mary 1673
> gap in records
Samuell 1683
with father Francis Keast

and

James 1667
Elizabeth 1668
John 1673
> gap in records
Stephen 1678
Johanna 1681
with father John Keast (1634, father John, married Joan Knight 1664?)

Could we theorize that Grace was born in the intervening years - between 1673 and 1677/78 ??

But to which family?

On the Sibly side,
There are a Thomas 1665 and your? Richard 1668 and Samuell 1672, all father Thomas Sibly.
And there is Elizabeth 1667 ("Libly") father Nicholas.

So I would guess that with Richard Sibly born in 1668, if that is him who married in 1699, his bride Grace Keast was quite likely born 1673-1677, and a daughter of John Keast or Francis Keast, and her baptism record is lost.


Now, if Francis and John Keast, the two fathers, were brothers, you could still make the assumption that Grace was born in the missing years and look back from there without it altering your Keast line, as the two fathers would have had the same parents -- although you would be forever stuck with an assumption. The mother's line would be undertermined, though.



I've just noticed as well that at Don's page with the chronological listing of St Cleer baptisms (link above), there is an enormous and total gap between 1635 and 1663, but I don't think he explained that. It could be why I can't find a record of a Francis Keast baptism, for instance. Or marriage. There's a death 1703 in St Cleer, though.

I see now the same gap exists for marriages and burials: 1635 to 1663.

Maybe fizzy can tell us more about that.

[fizzybubble]

St Cleer 1763 Mary Sibly to Saml and Elizabeth, which I assume is Sam Sib and Eliz Kingdon.

Fizzy

[JaneyCanuck]

I was editing my confusion as you spoke, having spotted that Mary baptism I'd somehow missed before. Check back a page to what I posted for finnisfinder?


I just thought I'd tell the Richard of Tennessee tale, for entertainment value.

Richard Sibly, son of Elizabeth Coumbe and Samuel, was baptised in 1775 in St Cleer.
He died in 1847 in St Cleer, with a note as to residence: "Hal Ballick Liskeard Parish".
(I don't know what that means other than he was residing in Liskeard.)
He may have married Elizabeth Govett in St Cleer in 1805, but they are in St Cleer in 1841, so more likely Catharine Stoneman in 1812 in Liskeard (an apparently widowed Rich Sib with sons is in Liskeard in 1841).

There are trees all over the internet -- about 50 when I last did a count at Anc'y -- who have Richard Shipley born in 1775 in Tennessee, married and died on that side of the ocean, where all his fool descendants now live, as the son of Samuel Sibly and Elizabeth Combe in Cornwall.

[fizzybubble]

The Richard and Elizabeth in St Cleer at Tremar in 1841 - They had moved to Liskeard by 1851 as Elizabeth (widow) is living next door to married son James at (H)albathick. So the Richard who died Albathick I think is yours. In 1861 Elizabeth is living with her Govett family.

Hadnt found the one in Liskeard but I have now in Pound Lane.

Fizzy

[JaneyCanuck]

So mine are Samuel Sibly and Elizabeth Combe (and yup, I'd figured out that she was the one who died in Warleggan, see a page back).

They had a son Richard Sibly 1775, and I'm just gobsmacked at the stupid people who have accepted Ancy's "hint" that he is one and the same as Richard Shipley born 1775 in Tennessee, and made him the son of my Samuel and Elizabeth in Cornwall. "Sibly" and "Shipley" may be variants of the same name (which I sincerely doubt), but a Richard Shipley born in Tennessee was not the son of Samuel Sibly and Elizabeth Coumbe of St Cleer Cornwall.

Four dozen silly people, at least, are claiming my ancestors as theirs, and suggesting that my grx4 grandfather ran off to the southeastern USA in the 1770s and fathered a child at the same time as he was having a child in Cornwall, then scooted back home again. Like you were saying: do one's own research!

At Anc'y, in 1841, he is Richard Sibly 1781 in Liskeard, a farmer, with sons Richard and Nicholas, in a Merrifield household. But he's just my ancestor's brother. He just wasn't born in Tennessee, is the thing.


Anyhow, the big Richard Sibly in this thread is finnisfinder's, who married Grace Keast.

And it seems that the question of who Grace Keast's parents were is unanswerable, because she was likely born 1673-1677, in the gap in St Cleer parish records.

[fizzybubble]

Read modification above.

Fizzy

[fizzybubble]

Grace Keast bap 1660 to Joseph in St Neot, which is sort of "next door" to St Cleer.

Fizzy

Altho probably not of she had a child in 1711 as she would have been 51, unless the child was born sooner and baptised as an older infant.

[JaneyCanuck]

The Richard and Elizabeth in St Cleer at Tremar in 1841 - They had moved to Liskeard by 1851 as Elizabeth (widow) is living next door to married son James at (H)albathick. So the Richard who died Albathick I think is yours.

I think that's what I was saying. The age at death of the Richard Sibly in the St Cleer burial records, residing "Hal Ballick Liskeard Parish", is a perfect match for Richard son of my Sam and Eliz.


Back to finnisfinder's Grace Keast who married the older Richard Sibly -- fizzybubble!! -- the St Cleer parish records are gone for 1673 to 1677 -- gone for longer than that before 1677, but reconstructed from BTs except for the years 1673-1677.

Would we not agree (see my post on the previous page) that it is highly likely that Grace Keast was a child of either John or Francis and born sometime 1673-1677 in St Cleer, where she then married Richard Sibly in 1699?