Margaret LORKING c. 1817 Stratford, Essex

[Valda]

Hi

I am not making a suggestion. Until you have the information from Margaret's marriage certificate that give her father's details there is no proof of anything.

However if she states William and a tailor then this looks to be the family in Stratford.

Parents William and Margaret
Known children
William
George
Peter
Emma

There may have been others including your Margaret. These are the known children from the 1841 census. Daughters often left early to work as servants and by 1841 Margaret was in her early 20s, so had probably been working from around the age of 14. Even if your Margaret was found in the 1841 census, if she is the daughter of this family the census will only tell you she was a working servant living in.



Thomas Bigg Tirebuck and Elizabeth seem to have lived in the West Ham area for at least 24 years before his death registration there.

1901 census RG13 1627 13
31 St Mary Road Walthamstow Essex
Thomas Bigg 42 Head Married Hairdresser Luton Bedfordshire
Elizabeth Bigg 47 Wife Married Luton Bedfordshire


From a free search of the 1911 census Thomas was still in Walthamstow with Elizabeth. Enumerated as Biggs.

Possible death registration for Elizabeth but slightly to young, but then she appears to have lost a few years given her age on the 1911 census.

Deaths Mar 1932   
Biggs  Elizabeth  76  W.Ham  4a 275

You can be known by any name you like, though nowadays because of paperwork it is much more difficult to change. Presumably when Thomas and Elizabeth moved to Walthamstow in their everyday lives they used the surname Bigg/s though when it came to Thomas' death registration Elizabeth decided to use the name his birth and marriage were registered in.


Regards

Valda

[mikeyr62]

Hi

I am not making a suggestion. Until you have the information from Margaret's marriage certificate that give her father's details there is no proof of anything.

However if she states William and a tailor then this looks to be the family in Stratford.

Parents William and Margaret
Known children
William
George
Peter
Emma

There may have been others including your Margaret. These are the known children from the 1841 census. Daughters often left early to work as servants and by 1841 Margaret was in her early 20s, so had probably been working from around the age of 14. Even if your Margaret was found in the 1841 census, if she is the daughter of this family the census will only tell you she was a working servant living in.



Thomas Bigg Tirebuck and Elizabeth seem to have lived in the West Ham area for at least 24 years before his death registration there.

1901 census RG13 1627 13
31 St Mary Road Walthamstow Essex
Thomas Bigg 42 Head Married Hairdresser Luton Bedfordshire
Elizabeth Bigg 47 Wife Married Luton Bedfordshire


From a free search of the 1911 census Thomas was still in Walthamstow with Elizabeth. Enumerated as Biggs.

Possible death registration for Elizabeth but slightly to young, but then she appears to have lost a few years given her age on the 1911 census.

Deaths Mar 1932   
Biggs  Elizabeth  76  W.Ham  4a 275

You can be known by any name you like, though nowadays because of paperwork it is much more difficult to change. Presumably when Thomas and Elizabeth moved to Walthamstow in their everyday lives they used the surname Bigg/s though when it came to Thomas' death registration Elizabeth decided to use the name his birth and marriage were registered in.


Regards

Valda

Hi,

I appreciate what you are saying and I understand what you are saying. Nonetheless, thank you very much - at least you have found a Lorking family in the right area - when I have the available cash in a few weeks time I will buy the marriage certificate.

Thank you also for finding Thomas and Elizabeth - I never thought to look for them using Thomas' middle name! It is interesting how much these two moved around - they were both born in Luton, they got married in Burnley, and then they came back to Luton and finally they return to where Elizabeth's mother originated and I'm guessing where she still had family. It is interesting to see where they lived in Walthamstow as earlier this year I was working in London for a short while and lived just 200 yards from where Elizabeth and Thomas lived.
I don't suppose you know how to find out where Elizabeth and Thomas are buried?

And again, thank you so very much.

Mike

[Valda]

Hi

Walthamstow today is in the London borough of Waltham Forest - this is presuming they didn't move before they died into another part of the area. It all mounts up cash wise but when searching for a burial in the London area having the death certificate with the exact date of death and place of death is sometimes necessary and anyway when requesting a cemetery search it makes searching a lot easier.

There is a guide at the top of the Essex Rootschat boards to burials in Essex which includes the areas of Essex which became part of Greater London in 1965 and now form five London boroughs (Barking and Dagenham, Havering, Newham, Redbridge and Waltham Forest). Under each is listed the cemeteries in their area, the dates they opened and who manages them and holds the records. Links are given to the cemetery offices.

You starting point would be Waltham Forest but bear in mind these boroughs didn't exist before 1965 and depending on where they were living, cemeteries now in Newham for instance might be just as near. Addresses for each cemetery are given so you can use Google maps to find them in relation to where the couple were living in 1911. 


Regards

Valda

[mikeyr62]

Hi

Walthamstow today is in the London borough of Waltham Forest - this is presuming they didn't move before they died into another part of the area. It all mounts up cash wise but when searching for a burial in the London area having the death certificate with the exact date of death and place of death is sometimes necessary and anyway when requesting a cemetery search it makes searching a lot easier.

There is a guide at the top of the Essex Rootschat boards to burials in Essex which includes the areas of Essex which became part of Greater London in 1965 and now form five London boroughs (Barking and Dagenham, Havering, Newham, Redbridge and Waltham Forest). Under each is listed the cemeteries in their area, the dates they opened and who manages them and holds the records. Links are given to the cemetery offices.

You starting point would be Waltham Forest but bear in mind these boroughs didn't exist before 1965 and depending on where they were living, cemeteries now in Newham for instance might be just as near. Addresses for each cemetery are given so you can use Google maps to find them in relation to where the couple were living in 1911. 


Regards

Valda

Many thanks.

I'll search for this over the weekend.

And again, thanks - your help has been invaluable.

Mike

[mikeyr62]

Hi

There are other Lorkings on censuses giving a birthplace of Stratford

e.g.

1851 census HO107 1768 folio 71
High Street West Ham
George Lorking 29 Head Married Tailor Stratford Essex
Harriet Lorking 25 Wife Married Wennington Essex
Harriet Lorking 1 Daughter Stratford Essex
Infant Lorking 3 days Son Stratford Essex
plus 1 apprentice and 1 nurse

On the 1861 census there is also William Lorking aged 41 a leather cloth painter/silk printer (on 1851 census) and his family in West Ham.


The two brothers were with their parents on the 1841 census

1841 census HO107 323/12 folio 7
Near the turnpike West Ham Essex
William Lorkin 45 Tailor not born in county
William Lorkin 20 Silk printer born in county
George Lorkin 15 Tailor born in county
Peter Lorkin 13 born in county
Margarit Lorkin 45 not born in county
Emma Lorkin 6 born in county
adult ages, those over 15, are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.


William junior's marriage


27th December 1841 Holy Trinity Minories Liberty of the Tower of London
William Lorking Full Age Bachelor Printer Spital Square William Lorking Tailor
Hannah Pigrome Full Age Spinster Spital Square John Pigrome Clerk in the West Middlesex Docks
Both signed
Witnesses Charles Ashbourn, Margaret Lorking and Caroline Pigrome


Margaret Lorking senior was with her son William in West Ham on the 1861 census. She was aged 65, a widower born Guildford Surrey.

Deaths Dec 1872   
Lorking  Margaret  82  W. Ham  4a 31


The 1842 marriage for Margaret Lorking will confirm whether her father was William and a tailor. You can obtain her asylum records from Bedfordshire Record Office. Doctors of the period often made some reference to family member/s in asylum patients' records since they were often interested in proving a genetic link, though the general held belief at the time from the male medical  profession and society in general was that women were weaker of mind.


The Lorking baptisms may have taken place at All Saints West Ham (if Anglican) as this could be to early for an Anglican church at Stratford. Though the orginal registers are held at Essex Record Office (you will be able to view them - for a price by the end of the month

see this topic

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,543364.0.html

The London borough of Newham archives which hold microfilm copies of the registers in the area have also indexed them.

http://www.newham.gov.uk/EntertainmentandLeisure/Libraries/LibraryReferenceServices/ArchivesAndLocalHistory/Servicesatthearchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm


Sometimes if you can't go, at least at present through the direct line, looking for siblings can help.


Regards

Valda

Hi Valda,

Well, I've finally found the money to purchase William and Margaret's marriage certificate.

It would appear that your "suggestion" about Margaret's family was correct. On the certificate her father is listed as William Lorking, a tailor.

All it says for age was that both William Tapley and Margaret were of age. William was a school master (he appears on the 1841 census in Leighton Buzzard as a school master on on his son William's birth certificate as that too - although on other census returns and on William's marriage certificate he is listed as either a grocer or a shoe and boot manufacturer!)

Margaret is listed with no occupation although that does not surprise me as I would guess that she was journeying backwards and forwards between London and Leighton Buzzard. Their first child was born in Leighton Buzzard in 1843.

It does raise further questions though - the witnesses to the marriage were John Tapley (presumably William's younger brother (the father of Joseph Tapley - the world famous opera singer)) and Sarah Tapley - we have NO idea who she was, she does not enter our tree anywhere! so it appears to be one question answered and another one chucked in to the melting pot. It might also suggest something about the family dynamics at the time as all of the Tapley children lived in much the same area at the time of William's marriage and yet he asked a much younger brother to be his witness rather than one of his siblings that was much closer in age.

Now I need to start tracing the Lorkings to see if I have any living relatives fromthat line.

And again, thank you for your help.

Mike

[Valda]

Hi


Can't help with Sarah - she's likely to be either a sister or sister-in-law, but could be an aunt or cousin. Were William's parents William and Mary Ann?

Women's occupations on marriage, particularly early marriages may not be included, as they often aren't for married women on censuses. Margaret would have given up her employment to marry. Man was the provider and it was not the thing to have a working wife, though many married women were working taking in laundry for instance. This often doesn't show on censuses.

If the marriage took place on a working day (any day but Sunday or a religious festival) then those present would have to give up time and money to travel to the church. Marriages were not the very expensive and long events (with receptions) they are today since time off work was usually required. The cost of the banns or a licence were costly enough for working people, so the event itself often in a London church where other marriages were all taking place on the same day, was by necessity a shorter event with the couple dressed in their Sunday best.

http://www.svcc.edu/academics/classes/murray/transfer/palaisroyal/stmonday.pdf


Regards

Valda

[mikeyr62]

Hi


Can't help with Sarah - she's likely to be either a sister or sister-in-law, but could be an aunt or cousin. Were William's parents William and Mary Ann?

Women's occupations on marriage, particularly early marriages may not be included, as they often aren't for married women on censuses. Margaret would have given up her employment to marry. Man was the provider and it was not the thing to have a working wife, though many married women were working taking in laundry for instance. This often doesn't show on censuses.

If the marriage took place on a working day (any day but Sunday or a religious festival) then those present would have to give up time and money to travel to the church. Marriages were not the very expensive and long events (with receptions) they are today since time off work was usually required. The cost of the banns or a licence were costly enough for working people, so the event itself often in a London church where other marriages were all taking place on the same day, was by necessity a shorter event with the couple dressed in their Sunday best.

http://www.svcc.edu/academics/classes/murray/transfer/palaisroyal/stmonday.pdf


Regards

Valda

Hi Valda,

Sorry for the delay in replying to your posting - I've been really busy tracing the lines of Margaret's siblings - I've done well so far and have managed to trace Emma's line right up to a 4th cousin who lives less than 50 miles away from me now in Cambridgeshire!

Still no idea who the SARAH referred to on the marriage certificate was - she doesn't enterinto the family tree as either a sibling, cousin or spouse - so I guess that we'll never know! 

Yes, William's parents were William Tapley and Mary Ann Albert.

Margaret was always shown as a "sewer" on census returns but no occupation was given on the marriage certificate - another of those unanswerable anomilies, I guess.

May 14th 1842 (the date of the marriage) was a Saturday - so I guess that explains why some of his family might not have been there.

Still cannot find Margaret on the 1841 census - this is now my bug bear with regard to her.

I guess it's time to keep following up the leads that have been created by this, and again, thank you for all your help - it really has been much appreciated.

Regards,

Mike

[coombs]

Lorking is a surname that appears a lot in the Kedington and Haverhill area of Suffolk. I have a Lorken Wallaker born in 1761 in Kedington. Could be Lorking is a family name.

Margaret Lorking may have ancestors from this part of Suffolk if you go back far enough.

[mikeyr62]

Lorking is a surname that appears a lot in the Kedington and Haverhill area of Suffolk. I have a Lorken Wallaker born in 1761 in Kedington. Could be Lorking is a family name.

Margaret Lorking may have ancestors from this part of Suffolk if you go back far enough.

I guess that this is possible.

We have managed o find out that both of Margaret's parents were born c. 1796. According the 1841 census, they were both born out of county (Essex) - later census returns show that her mother (also Margaret)was born in Guildford, Surrey - we do not know where her father was born as he cannot be found on subsequent census returns.

familysearch has identified just one possible marriage - in Wanstead, Essex in 1816. William Lorking to Margaret Cotten or Collen - but there is no way (I assume) of proving that this is the correct marriage or of confirming where William was born.

Any additional help would be much appreciated.

Mike