John Turla Cave - Music Hall Singer 1858 - ca 1879?

[Aceh]

I should clarify that this is not my research area. My line descends from Ruth Susan Osborn's elder brother.

Some years ago I was corresponding from S E Asia with a direct descendant of JCT & RSO's son William John Cave but he died some time ago. Then when back in the UK a direct descendant of the 2nd child Florence Maud Osborn (Cave?) contacted me saying JCT was a Music Hall singer. Now a cousin of the deceased gentleman has contacted me and asked whether I have anything new?

So I put aside my own research in 18th century Kent to see whether RootsChat may be able to throw some light into the fog surrounding the Music Hall singer. And of course you have responded very generously with your time, but raised questions that I can't answer directly. I have sent 2 emails so far to the descendants of JCT & RSO and await replies.

The paternity of the 2nd child was always in doubt - was it Mr Cave or Mr Bratt (or someone else?). I agree that the 1891 census entry would tend to eliminate Mr Bratt, but as Ruth Susan had another 6 children that we know of by Mr Bratt and Mr Ticehurst and there may have been others - she appears to have been very generous with her favours - nothing is certain.

I'll post again when I get answers!

Cheers!

[Aceh]

Hi

Some help with locating music hall artists

http://www.hissboo.co.uk/musichall_artistes.html

Local library membership often gives you free access on the internet to the Gale (from the British Library collection) C19th newspapers mentioned in the link.

If he died circa 1879 then he would only have been 21 so his career could not have been substantial making it harder to find information on him.

Interesting coincidence of the Turle middle name for the other John Turle/Thomas Cave born earlier in 1854 St George in the East to John and Lydia nee Morill. Was there any connection?

Deaths Mar 1905   Cave  John Turle  50  Camberwell  1d 487


Was John Turle Cave born 1858 Shoreditch the illegitimate son of Richard Tuck and Elizabeth Cave or Richard Turl?

Have you found either Ruth or John Cave on earlier censuses?


Regards

Valda

Evening Valda,

The answer is yes - JTC was the base born son of Elizabeth Cave by Richard Tuck.  But it seems that the information comes from workhouse records not a birth certificate. I have asked for scans of whatever they have.
Both say that JTC was a singer.

I'll get back when I have more concrete info.

Cheers!

[Valda]

Hi


Have you also got the birth certificate of Maud to prove she had the same mother -  Suz's point - she is recorded as niece (which might be for propriety's sake) on the later census.

The surviving Shoreditch Kingsland workhouse birth registers date from 1862?


Regards

Valda

[Aceh]

Dear all,

I've now received research details from the descendants of Ruth Susan Osborn and John Turle Cave. It seems there has been for some time a degree of confusion caused by over reliance upon family anecdote at the expense of hard data from GRO birth certificates, censuses etc. I've checked FreeBMD and given them details of the certificates and census records that I believe they need to establish which of the two John Caves in the time-frame sired Ruth Susan Osborn's children. I will be checking on their progress from time to time.

Many thanks for your observations and positive suggestions.
 

[Mo Dem]

Dear All.  I am fascinated by this rootschat.  My father was Brian John Hamilton Cave, grandson to William John Cave.    I am guessing that you have been in touch with my 1st cousin, 1st removed, Julie?  Julie has been the main source of information that I have and I too am mystified by the lineage and occupations.  I would suggest that music is certainly a strong link in the family as my brother is a fine singer and musician - but unfortunately these genes seem to have missed me!  William was reportedly a talented musician and was leader of his own band.  He was best known as a piano player but according to family reports he played the clarinet in one of the military bands and apparently played on Yarmouth Pier in 1916.  As yet I have found no evidence to back this up.  My fathers family tree research was very through and I have no reason to disprove any facts but it is frustrating not able to prove these stories.  I would very much like to be in touch with you and share information you may have.  King regards, Maureen.

[Aceh]

Morning Maureen, welcome to RootChat.

I descend from Ruth Susan Osborn's brother Isaac William. While I was working in Java, between 2000 and 2002 I was in contact with your late father Brian regarding our shared links to the Osborn family. Since my return to the UK I have been in contact with Julie and other Osborn researchers. If you would care to send me a personal message through RootsChat giving me your contact details I will attempt to fill you in, although I haven't as yet received anything new since my RootsChat posting of 30 August last.

[Mo Dem]

Dear Aceh.  My contact details are * It will be great to hear from you.  I was unfortunate not to know my Dad due to family circumstances and since October 2010 I have been discovering a family I never knew existed.  It was been quite a journey and I have had to rely on Julie for some of the family history.  Researching family trees can be quite rewarding and frustrating when you cannot find answers to questions or prove 'old family' tales.  Kind regards, Maureen.


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[suzard]

Hi Maureen

We  do not normally post personal details - e.g. e addresses - so the mods may remove it . Just in case I thought to tell you there is a private message facility to use for that kind of information - you need to make 3 posts before you can use it - so just reply OK and you can then send PM's

Every best wish for your future research

Suz

[Aceh]

Since my last post I have come to the conclusion that the only John Turle Cave was in fact the John Thomas Cave born Q2 1856 St George in the East 1c 441 according to FreeBMD. I've checked his census returns from 1871 to 1901 showing his birth family and spouse family. He actually names himself “John Turle Cave” only once, that is in the 1891 census but he can be tracked with the other family members up and down from there. I believe this is the only John Turle Cave that there was. Perhaps he decided to improve his musical credentials by taking the name Turle from the musical side of the Turle family which originated in the West Country; see http://www.turle.name/

Even though he described himself as a Vocalist on the August 1877 birth certificate for his son William John Cave by Ruth Susan Osborn, and perhaps he had aspirations in that direction, nevertheless his singing appears to have been something of a side-line, as from 1871 to 1891 inclusive the census consistently describes him as a clerk.

Ruth Susan Osborn appears to have been another side-line as their 2nd child - a daughter Maud, was born after the census date in 1881 and John's census return for that year shows he already had a 5 year old daughter and a 2 year old son by his wife Harriet!

Another skeleton comes clattering out of the closet!

Fortunately, as the censuses also show, Ruth Susan's parents were on hand to bring up the two children. Grandparents - what would we do without them?