Author Topic: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?  (Read 4325 times)

Offline rowanali

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Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« on: Thursday 01 September 11 21:03 BST (UK) »
One of my relatives, having attested for the 13th Hussars in 1898 elected to sign his agreement to the following... "Messing Allowance in accordance with provisions of para 5 Army Order 65 of 1898".† It is stamped in red at the top of page one of his army records and he has signed underneath it.  Was this standard?† What does it mean?† Thanks for any light on this.

Rowanali

Offline ScouseBoy

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 01 September 11 21:09 BST (UK) »
It would be something like "subsistence allowance"   as we may   call it today.


They may have paid him a daily allowance  to buy his own meals.
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline FROGSMILE

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 27 July 20 11:53 BST (UK) »
Messing Allowance related to new messing regulations (contained in Army Order 65, May 1, of 1898). 
A recruit, until he was nineteen years old, got twelvepence a day; he subsequently got fifteenpence a day. The increase of 3d. was due to the so-called "messing" allowance. This term "messing" allowance is misleading. In effect he was stopped, by the War Office, 3d. per diem for his groceries including vegetables. The soldier's food provided in kind by the Government consisted of 1 lb. of bread and ĺ lb. of raw meat, including bone. All the rest of the soldier's food was paid for out of the soldier's own pocket and so ó3d. per diem was stopped from the soldier's pay for tea, coffee, and other groceries and vegetables.
At the time the new regulation benefited sergeants who had service between twelve and twenty-one years (as by virtue of privilege afforded to their rank they already had a similar scheme), to the extent of 1d. a day. Thus deferred pay to be credited to them was the amount that had accrued to the date on which they, in each individual case, elected to draw the messing allowance (they had to choose whether to do so). The upshot was that the private paid 3d. and the sergeant from 6d. to 7Ĺd. for messing.


Offline Rena

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 27 July 20 13:21 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "Officers' Mess Allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his spending jolly evenings with his  officer pals and putting alcohol onto his "tab".   
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline FROGSMILE

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 27 July 20 13:27 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "mess allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his putting alcohol onto his "tab"

Itís not quite the same thing Iím afraid and Iím positive that he was referring to his Mess Bill, which was/is where all alcohol consumption is tabbed and then paid for monthly.  It can build up to eye watering amounts when a man has a little too much to drink and becomes garrulous and generous by equal measures.  I spent a 2-year tour of duty at an RAF Station whilst an Army officer and I found them noticeably less disciplined/strict when it came to such matters.  I do not say this as a matter of inter service rivalry but just as an observation of the cultural differences that I experienced.

Offline Rena

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 27 July 20 21:52 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "mess allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his putting alcohol onto his "tab"

Itís not quite the same thing Iím afraid and Iím positive that he was referring to his Mess Bill, which was/is where all alcohol consumption is tabbed and then paid for monthly.  It can build up to eye watering amounts when a man has a little too much to drink and becomes garrulous and generous by equal measures.  I spent a 2-year tour of duty at an RAF Station whilst an Army officer and I found them noticeably less disciplined/strict when it came to such matters.  I do not say this as a matter of inter service rivalry but just as an observation of the cultural differences that I experienced.

Thanks for the insight Frogsmile.  As for the general heading of "discipline";  I noticed the expectation of the weekly "keep fit" activity for the army in those days was markedly different to that expected of my OH who was "other ranks" in the RAF..

Ref inter service rivalry - it's there when needs be, but otherwise the three diciplines are all family. marching in step with each other.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline FROGSMILE

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 27 July 20 23:10 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "mess allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his putting alcohol onto his "tab"

Itís not quite the same thing Iím afraid and Iím positive that he was referring to his Mess Bill, which was/is where all alcohol consumption is tabbed and then paid for monthly.  It can build up to eye watering amounts when a man has a little too much to drink and becomes garrulous and generous by equal measures.  I spent a 2-year tour of duty at an RAF Station whilst an Army officer and I found them noticeably less disciplined/strict when it came to such matters.  I do not say this as a matter of inter service rivalry but just as an observation of the cultural differences that I experienced.

Thanks for the insight Frogsmile.

Ref inter service rivalry - it's there when needs be, but otherwise the three diciplines are all family. marching in step with each other.

Iím glad to have been of some small assistance.

As for inter service matters, I did find the experience very strange.  It reinforced in my mind just how important immersive cultural indoctrination is in a military institution.

Offline Rena

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 27 July 20 23:59 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "mess allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his putting alcohol onto his "tab"

Itís not quite the same thing Iím afraid and Iím positive that he was referring to his Mess Bill, which was/is where all alcohol consumption is tabbed and then paid for monthly.  It can build up to eye watering amounts when a man has a little too much to drink and becomes garrulous and generous by equal measures.  I spent a 2-year tour of duty at an RAF Station whilst an Army officer and I found them noticeably less disciplined/strict when it came to such matters.  I do not say this as a matter of inter service rivalry but just as an observation of the cultural differences that I experienced.

Thanks for the insight Frogsmile.

Ref inter service rivalry - it's there when needs be, but otherwise the three disciplines are all family. marching in step with each other.

Iím glad to have been of some small assistance.

As for inter service matters, I did find the experience very strange.  It reinforced in my mind just how important immersive cultural indoctrination is in a military institution.

I met my first veteran soldier in the mid 1950s.  I was dumbounded when I heard one of his army stories.  His army unit were packed like sardines into a ship being conveyed to fight in the Korean War (1950-1953).  Every soldier was allowed up on deck for fresh air and exercise for one hour each per day.   Men spent their time below deck playing a game of cards and gambling with matchsticks (illegal to gamble with money in those days). Halfway across the ocean gambling with matchsticks became rather  tame and gambling with pennies was more exciting.  Unfortunately my fellow office worker was discovered and was sent down into the bilges (not the hold) where they stayed until the ship returned to England.  I was astonished that they didn't accompany their regiment onto the battlefield.  He spent a year in the army glasshouse and about ten years later in the 1960s I saw the film "The Hill" which showed exactly what our army prisoners had to endure.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline FROGSMILE

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Re: Messing Allowance? - any ideas what it means?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 17:42 BST (UK) »
Several decades ago, I socially met an RAF pilot, he did tell me his rank, but the only thing I now recall about that is that he had "eleven years seniority".   The other smidge of information I remember is that he was upset that he had been asked to pay his "mess allowance", which had built up to a tidy sum, due to his putting alcohol onto his "tab"

Itís not quite the same thing Iím afraid and Iím positive that he was referring to his Mess Bill, which was/is where all alcohol consumption is tabbed and then paid for monthly.  It can build up to eye watering amounts when a man has a little too much to drink and becomes garrulous and generous by equal measures.  I spent a 2-year tour of duty at an RAF Station whilst an Army officer and I found them noticeably less disciplined/strict when it came to such matters.  I do not say this as a matter of inter service rivalry but just as an observation of the cultural differences that I experienced.

Thanks for the insight Frogsmile.

Ref inter service rivalry - it's there when needs be, but otherwise the three disciplines are all family. marching in step with each other.

Iím glad to have been of some small assistance.

As for inter service matters, I did find the experience very strange.  It reinforced in my mind just how important immersive cultural indoctrination is in a military institution.

I met my first veteran soldier in the mid 1950s.  I was dumbounded when I heard one of his army stories.  His army unit were packed like sardines into a ship being conveyed to fight in the Korean War (1950-1953).  Every soldier was allowed up on deck for fresh air and exercise for one hour each per day.   Men spent their time below deck playing a game of cards and gambling with matchsticks (illegal to gamble with money in those days). Halfway across the ocean gambling with matchsticks became rather  tame and gambling with pennies was more exciting.  Unfortunately my fellow office worker was discovered and was sent down into the bilges (not the hold) where they stayed until the ship returned to England.  I was astonished that they didn't accompany their regiment onto the battlefield.  He spent a year in the army glasshouse and about ten years later in the 1960s I saw the film "The Hill" which showed exactly what our army prisoners had to endure.

Things improved a bit after 1963, when National Service ended and the Army was made a salaried profession, although change was very gradual.  By the time that I enlisted in the early 70s the military detention facilities had been reduced to one and it was called instead a corrective training centre.  There was less brutality (albeit it remained under the surface) and instead a regime more like a repetition of basic training.  However, as the NCOs and officers were themselves old school things evolved slowly and in tune with the retirement of such men.