Author Topic: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?  (Read 10469 times)

Offline Georgfriedrich

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PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« on: Sunday 02 October 11 15:57 BST (UK) »
Hello fellow rootschatters,

There are many sites and online family trees which take it for granted that the Presnells come from Oxfordshire.  They also take it for granted that the progenitors of the family married in Sussex and point to a parish record to be found in the IGI showing James Presnell marrying Sarah Tooth at Piddinghoe in 1765.
My question is: How do we know these are the correct Presnells?  How do we know that the parents of the original Tasmanian Presnells are in fact these two people?  I know Sarah Presnell arrived in HObart prior to her death in 1823 but how do we know she came from Sussex?
There appear to be a family of Presnells living in Sussex and another family living in Oxfordshire but I cannot find any link between the two nor a link between either of these and the Tasmania Presnells who seem to appear in records in London in the 1800s.
Are there any proofs out there in document land to lend credence to these beliefs?  ???
Any ideas are welcome as I am finding this to be a sticking point in my construction of the Presnell family tree prior to arriving in Tasmania
Thank you
Kirk
London/Greater London:  Owen, Ford, Plank, Paul and . . . Smith.
Essex:  Robjant, Brown (!)
Yorkshire:  Fallowfield, Snarr, Wood, Dunn, Heron, Bean, Wright
Leics. : Flude, Smalley, Caris,
Northants: Flude
Lincs: Borrass, Hall (Grantham)
Staffs : Owen, Browne
Salop: Carver, Tristram
Suffolk: Barber, Boor
Kent: Reed, Gardiner, Vant, Miles
Wales:
Pembroke : Rees, Llewelyn
Elsewhere:
Ford, Rodrigues

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Offline tropicalj

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Re: Presnells of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 02 October 11 22:06 BST (UK) »
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2181811?searchTerm=Presnell&searchLimits=l-decade=182

you could try trolling through  TROVE for any reference ie like  the one I have attached

Unfortunately  the early Tasmanian certificates were woefully lacking in information.

Jenn
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Offline Georgfriedrich

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Re: Presnells of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 03 October 11 10:57 BST (UK) »
Thanks Jen,
I will start searching but I am not confident.  I did think of Trove but 'England' always seems to be the place of birth and nothing more specific!
Kirk
London/Greater London:  Owen, Ford, Plank, Paul and . . . Smith.
Essex:  Robjant, Brown (!)
Yorkshire:  Fallowfield, Snarr, Wood, Dunn, Heron, Bean, Wright
Leics. : Flude, Smalley, Caris,
Northants: Flude
Lincs: Borrass, Hall (Grantham)
Staffs : Owen, Browne
Salop: Carver, Tristram
Suffolk: Barber, Boor
Kent: Reed, Gardiner, Vant, Miles
Wales:
Pembroke : Rees, Llewelyn
Elsewhere:
Ford, Rodrigues

Offline Dundee

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 05 October 11 17:00 BST (UK) »
Hi Kirk,

The best records for this time period are the Tas. Colonial Secretary's Papers, but you will only occasionally find references to places of origin.  Having a trawl around the internet it seems that others have already accessed these records for the PRESNELL family's applications for land grants.  It also doesn't look like any of the headstones provide any useful information.

I must say that it is quite amusing to see how many people have joined the details of two families together to make one.  It was James PRESNELL who married Sarah TOOTH in Piddinghoe, Sussex and Thomas PRESNELL who was having children with a Sarah in Essex.  Some trees join all the children into one family and others have Thomas marrying Sarah TOOTH, just to make things "fit" better.  ;D

I personally cannot see how James and Sarah of Piddinghoe can be the originators of the Tas families.  They married at Piddinghoe in 1765 and children shown as being baptised in Piddinghoe are Sarah (1767), Mary (1769), Thomas (1772), Jenny (1774), Elizabeth (1776), Phillis (1778), James (1780), and Thomas Hugh (1782).

It would appear that the first Thomas died, but Thomas Hugh PRESNELL survived and married firstly in 1801 (bachelor of Piddinghoe) to Sarah GORRINGE.  They had one child, James, in 1802.  Thomas married secondly in 1808 (widower of Piddinghoe) to Charlotte HARRIS and they had a number of children.  At least two of them, Harriet and Sarah, also married in Piddinghoe.

Sarah PRESNELL who died in Tas in 1823 after immigrating had at least four sons living there - Thomas, John, James and William.  This Thomas married Martha DADGE in 1798 in London.  The DADGE name was used by Tas. descendants.  Clearly these two Thomas's are completely different people.  Sarah's son Thomas was already in Tasmania when the Piddinghoe Thomas (son of James and Sarah) was still in Sussex having children.

I would suggest that the first thing you should do is spend some time with the Piddinghoe parish registers to see if James PRESNELL and Sarah TOOTH died there.  That would surely disprove any connection between them and Tasmania.

The Oxfordshire connection is through Thomas PRESNELL and Martha DADGE. A quote:

"Thomas Presnell held the victualler's licence in the village of Cornwell near Chipping Norton, Oxon, from 1807 to 1819 before coming to Australia, free immigrant, in 1820 or 1821. According to the Victuallers' Cognizances which are on microfilm at the LDS, the licence was taken over 1820-1822 by his wife Martha Presnell, who never came to Australia".

I have a question - if Sarah's son William was the person who was transported to NSW in 1798 then who was the William PRESNELL who arrived free on the Jessie in 1821?

This claims that he was the son of Thomas, and so the grandson of Sarah, however Thomas's son would have only been six years old in 1821.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PRESNELL/2002-03/1015108468

Debra  :)

Offline Georgfriedrich

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 07 October 11 12:42 BST (UK) »
Spot on Debra!  ;)

This clearly involves a lot more research.  That is interesting that Martha Dadge never went to Australia.

I also had a lot of problems with the William Presnell issue.  There are to my mind two of them living in Australia.  One a free settler in Tasmania and the other a convict who I understand was living in (I think) living on Norfolk Island for a time...

This is what makes FT research so interesting - sorting through the facts and hopefully getting to the truth of the matter.

Bye for now
Kirk
London/Greater London:  Owen, Ford, Plank, Paul and . . . Smith.
Essex:  Robjant, Brown (!)
Yorkshire:  Fallowfield, Snarr, Wood, Dunn, Heron, Bean, Wright
Leics. : Flude, Smalley, Caris,
Northants: Flude
Lincs: Borrass, Hall (Grantham)
Staffs : Owen, Browne
Salop: Carver, Tristram
Suffolk: Barber, Boor
Kent: Reed, Gardiner, Vant, Miles
Wales:
Pembroke : Rees, Llewelyn
Elsewhere:
Ford, Rodrigues

Offline Ausjules

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 25 June 13 05:40 BST (UK) »
Im glad someone else is querying the presnell family tree :) i have a harriet presnell in my tree, born 1827 in new norfolk tas who married john cutler green. According to other peoples trees harriets parents are thomas presnell b. 1806 in oxfordshire and christiana presnell b. 1808 stepney london. Apparently they were cousins so i think that is how people have linked the two families, but i am still very unsure . Thanks for the extra info on martha dadge :)
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Offline Dundee

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 25 June 13 06:29 BST (UK) »
It looks as though both Thomas and Christiana were under the age of 21 as it is recorded that both had consent to marry.  The two men giving their consent, Thomas PRESNELL Snr. and John PRESNELL Snr. were likely to be their fathers, but may also have been a brother or another responsible adult.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-35347-4298-95?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9CN:538932062

Harriet's baptism:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-35349-20862-31?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9C7:n969996052

Debra  :)

Offline Ausjules

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 25 June 13 07:57 BST (UK) »
Thanks debra :) i just done a google search lol and 'apparently' christianas dad was john presnell who died 1831 aged 45. They came to au aboard 'midas' in 1820. Thomas' parents were thomas presnell and  martha dadge. I cant find a birth record for john but google says he was the son of james presnell and sarah tooth. Making him thomas' brother. Thats definatly the link that ties the two families together but now makes absolutly no sense. 
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Offline Dundee

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 26 June 13 04:46 BST (UK) »
Thanks debra :) I cant find a birth record for john but google says he was the son of james presnell and sarah tooth. Making him thomas' brother.

It is highly unlikely that the Sussex family of James PRESNELL & Sarah TOOTH had anything to do with the Tasmanian PRESNELL families.

James PRESNELL & Sarah TOOTH
Married 26 May 1765
at Piddinghoe, Sussex, England

Children baptised at Piddinghoe, Sussex to James & Sarah:

Sarah - 1767
Mary - 1769
Thomas - 1772 (buried 1772)
Jenny - 1774
Elizabeth - 1776
Phillis - 1778 (buried 1779)
James - 1780
Thomas Hugh - 1782

There was another PRESNELL family with parents Thomas & Sarah who were having children in Leyton, Essex and they look to be far more likely contenders for your family.

Children baptised in Leyton, Essex to Thomas & Sarah:

Thomas - 1774
William - 1776
James - 1778
Ann - 1780
Sarah - 1782
Joseph - 1784
John - 1787
Lucy - 1789

These dates sit fairly well with the marriage years of the three sons in London - James to Elizabeth DOUGHTY (1797), Thomas to Martha DADGE (1798), and John to Eleanor SHELTON/SKELTON in 1807, and also with their ages at death in Tasmania.

I do not see a marriage for Thomas PRESNELL and Sarah in the indexes that I have access to, but it may be worth contacting the Essex family history society as many societies have indexed the marriages in their counties.

Debra  :)