Author Topic: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?  (Read 10450 times)

Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 27 June 13 03:44 BST (UK) »
The clues to working this one out are in the documentation. (All the below has been gleaned from google searches and from searches of the archives held by ancestry.com.)

In summary:-
* Mrs Sarah Presnell who arrived in Hobart at the end of 1822 and died in Hobart in 1823 was the mother of William Presnell the convict from Essex.
* Mrs Sarah Presnell was NOT Sarah Tooth from Sussex.
* The family came from Essex, much of which today is part of the metropolis of London.
* Some of her children married in London.
* Her son Thomas married in London but moved his family to Oxfordshire before immigrating to Tasmania.
* Two of her other sons married in London, and settled in London before immigrating to Tasmania.
* Her husband’s name is unknown. (It is unsafe to assume that her children were baptized at Leyton, Essex as the children of a Thomas Presnell. Available evidence suggests that the Leyton, Essex family is the wrong family.)

Evidence for the summary above follows:-

1) The family in Sussex can be eliminated as per the posts of Debra (Dundee) on 5 October 2011 and 25 Jun 2013. In other words the matriarch Sarah is NOT Sarah Tooth who married James Presnell in Piddinghoe, Sussex in 1765.

2) When the matriarch Sarah died in Hobart on 27 Mar 1823 the notice in the newspaper said :
DIED—On Thursday morning last, after a short illness, Mrs. Presnell, mother of Mr. William Presnell, of Argyle-street, leaving a numerous family both in this Colony and in England to lament her loss. —The deceased arrived only a few months ago from England, in apparently good health, and lived to see the 86th year of her age. (Hobart Town Gazette, Saturday 29 Mar 1823)
Please note that Thursday morning last was 27 Mar 1823.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1089873
The death registration identifies her name at death as Sarah Presnell.

This tells us-
(a) Sarah was the mother of William Presnell of Argyle St
(b) Sarah had only recently arrived in Tasmania
(c) Sarah had a large family in England and Tasmania

(a) William Presnell (c1765-1839), the convict who had been moved from Norfolk Island with his wife Ann Fowler (c1764-1846) and their children, had been granted a building plot in Argyle Street, Glenorchy (a suburb of Hobart) in 1816. There is further documentary evidence of William Presnell’s association with his property in Argyle Street including that he built a residence there, that he established a bakery there which he leased out in Nov 1819, that he brewed beer and established a tavern there, and that he ran a "Horse, Cart and Dray Establishment" from there. On 23 Aug 1823 his son-in-law George William Robinson took over the running of the tavern and the cartage business at Argyle Street, while William continued from that address in his brewery business, appearing as such in an advertisement in 1824, and shown as “Wm Presnell, Brewer, Argyle Street” in the 1825 Tasmanian Almanack, and as “Presnell Wm., Carter & Brewer, Argyle Street” in 1826. William Presnell the convict was therefore known as William Presnell of Argyle Street.

Willam Presnell the convict (who received an Absolute Pardon in August 1821) is therefore the son of Sarah who died in 1823. William was convicted in Essex in 1797, establishing the place of origin of the family. (At William’s conviction he was recorded as from the Parish of Plaistow, Esssex. His Parish in Essex, however, is recorded differently for each of his four convictions, the other 3 parishes named being Chinkford, Little Ilford, and West Ham.)

(b) Sarah arrived in Hobart with her family on the “Regalia” on 30 Dec 1822.
Ship News.—Arrived on Monday last the ship Regalia...
The names of the passengers per the two arrivals this week from England, are as follow: Per Regalia, 70 in number, viiz…Mrs. S. Presnell and family.
(Hobart Town Gazette, Saturday 4 January 1823)
Please note that Monday last was 30 Dec 1823.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1089828
The family who accompanied her were her son Thomas and some of his children.

(Continued in next post)

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Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 27 June 13 03:54 BST (UK) »
(Continued from previous post)

(c) Two of Sarah’s sons, and an unaccompanied grandson, immigrated to Tasmania before she did:

* William Presnell (c1765-1839) forced migration to NSW on “Barwell” in 1798 from whence by about 1801 he was sent to Norfolk Island, and then in 1808 to Tasmania.

* John Presnell (c1786-1831) on “Midas” on 13 Jan 1821. With John was his wife and children.

* William James Presnell (ka William Presnell Jnr) (1798-1884) on “Jessie” on 26 Feb 1821. William was the son of Sarah’s son James Presnell (c1775-1844). (In March 1823 William Presnell Jnr applied for an allotment of land in Hobart Town. In support of his application William supplied the following information:
- he was a relative of the family of the same name residing in Hobart.
- he arrived in the settlement, a free subject, per Jessie.
- he was a boot and shoe maker by trade.
- his family arrived per “Regalia”.
Thomas Presnell (who we know to be his uncle) supported William's application. William was granted his own allotment.)

One of Sarah’s sons immigrated with Sarah in 1822:

* Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843) on “Regalia” on 30 Dec 1822. With Thomas were some of his children. His wife and at least one son remained in England.

One of Sarah’s sons immigrated after Sarah died in 1823:

* James Presnell (c1775-1844) on “Wanstead” on 20 May 1828. With James was his wife, his son Abraham, his daughter-in-law, and a grandchild. His son William James had immigrated in 1821, and on a date unknown his daughter Harriet with her husband and family.


In addition to her son James and his family, Sarah would also have left behind in England other children (and their families) who have not been able to be identified.


There was a Thomas and Sarah Presnell who had children in Leyton, Essex in the period 1774 to 1789. They had sons by the name of William, Thomas, John and James. The dates of baptism for the sons James and John in this family from Leyton, Essex, are close to the years of birth estimated from the death records of Sarah’s sons James and John. The dates of baptism for the sons Thomas and William in this family  from Leyton, Essex, are, however, out by about 5 years and 10 years respectively from the years of birth estimated from the death records of Sarah’s sons Thomas and William, and from the conviction record for her son William, and they are in a different birth order. The children of this family are:-
(1) Thomas bap.23 Jan 1774
– Sarah’s son Thomas was born c1769 from his death record, and Thomas was not the eldest son when compared to the records of his brother William
(2) William bap.9 Jun 1776
– Sarah’s son William was born c1765 from his death record and conviction record, and William was the eldest son when compared to the death record for his brother Thomas
(3) James bap.7 Jun 1778 – Sarah’s son James was born c1775 from his death record
(4) Ann bap.14 May 1780
(5) Sarah bap.31 Mar 1782
(6) Joseph bap.20 Jun 1784
(7) John bap.25 Feb 1787 – Sarah’s son John was born c1786 from his death record
( 8 ) Lucy Presnell bap.24 May 1789

It cannot be said that Sarah was married to Thomas Presnell and that her children were baptized at Leyton, Essex in the period 1774 to 1779. The man to whom Sarah was married, and her other children, are unknown.

(Continued in next post)

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Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 27 June 13 03:56 BST (UK) »
(Continued from previous post)

Unknown Father Presnell
married
Sarah Unknown (c1737 England-27 Mar 1823 Hobart)
Mrs Sarah Presnell arrived Hobart 30 Dec 1822 on “Regalia” with some of her family.
Mother of William Presnell of Argyle Street, Glenorchy

Known children (and grandchildren) of Unknown Father Presnell and Sarah Unknown:

*(1) William Presnell (c1765 Essex -13 Jun 1839 Glenorchy)
Granted a building plot in Argyle Street, Glenorchy in 1816.
CONVICT from Essex who it is recorded was 31 years of age at his conviction in March 1797, and 74 years of age when he died in 1839 making him born about 1765.
          William PRESNELL
          who departed this life
          13 June 1839
          Aged 74 years


married? on Norfolk Island (no marriage may have taken place)

Ann Fowler (c1764-1846 TAS)
-----> mother of Joseph Abbott (13 Nov 1797 Sydney-). Joseph Abbott was the son of Joseph Abbott from Gloucester. Some believe that Joseph died in Sydney as an infant in Mar 1800. It appears however that he was 1 of the 3 children that accompanied William Presnell & Ann Fowler aboard the “City Of Edinburgh” from Norfolk Island to Tasmania in 1808, and that he was still living in Jul 1839 when his sister Sarah Presnell died (see below).
-----------> some believe she is possibly the mother of Elizabeth Rouglas (c22 Dec 1801 Norfolk Island-bef.1808 Norfolk Island). Elizabeth Rouglas was the son of John Ruglass, but no mother’s name was recorded. John Ruglass had been a de-facto of either Ann Fowler or another woman Ann Fowles in Sydney. (He was also send to Norfolk Island, and then also to Tasmania in 1808 on the “City Of Edinburgh”.) It is impossible for Ann Fowler to be the mother of this child, however as she is definitely the mother of Elizabeth Presnell born on 20 Jun 1802 and there is only 6 months between the birth of Elizabeth Rouglas and Elizabeth Presnell.

Children of William Presnell & Ann Fowler
--*(1) Elizabeth Presnell (20 Jun 1802 Norfolk Island-22 Jan 1885 TAS) [baptised 25 Jul 1802] [found in 1814 muster] (married George William Robinson in 1823 in Hobart)
--*(2) Thomas Presnell (17 Nov 1804 Norfolk island-c1805 Norfolk Island)
Note: In the book "Norfolk Island 1788 - 1813, The People and their Families", by James Hugh Donohoe published in 1986 there is a record of Thomas dying in 1805. However, no other record has been found. It is possible that there was only 1 son by the name of Thomas born in 1804 and baptised 12 months later in 1805.
--*(3) Thomas Presnell (1805 Norfolk Island-11 Nov 1838) [baptised 25 Dec 1805] [found in 1814 muster]
          Thomas PRESNELL
          who departed this life
          11 November 1838
          Aged 32 years

          (in same grave as his father)
--*(4) Sarah Presnell (c1808 TAS-29 Jul 1839 TAS) [found in 1814 muster] (married Thomas Pregnell (c1800-1844) on 26 Jan 1826 in Hobart)
--*(5) James Presnell (1811 TAS-) [found in 1814 muster] [baptised 30 Nov 1811]

From 3 Sep 1808 to 2 Nov 1808 on the “City Of Edinburgh” 3 children travelled from Norfolk Island to Tasmania with William & Ann, 2 of whom were Elizabeth & Thomas. When Sarah Presnell (c1808-1839) died in 1839 it was noted that her mother and her mother’s eldest son were present. The third child who travelled from Norfolk Island to Tasmania therefore appears to be Joseph Abbott (1797-). Also Reg Wright in his book "The Forgotten Generation of Norfolk Island and Van Diemen’s Land", published in 1986 recorded that the 3 children on the “City Of Edinburgh” were Elizabeth, Thomas and “Jos”, names that he found on a victualling list.

(Continued in next post)

Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 27 June 13 03:59 BST (UK) »
Known children (and grandchildren) of Unknown Father Presnell and Sarah Unknown:

CONTINUED

In the data below you will find the 2 sets of cousins who married, children of John Presnell (c1786-1831) and Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843).

*(2) Thomas Presnell (c1769 Essex -21 Feb 1843 TAS)

married 2 Jul 1798 London

Martha Dadge (c1780 England – aft1822 England)

Children:
--*(1) John Presnell (c1805 London – England) (Married Elizabeth before 1840)
Never immigrated to Tasmania. In 1841census he is with his wife, daughter and 1 servant at Over Norton Hamlet, Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, Victualler, aged 35, not born in the county.
--*(2) Thomas Presnell Jnr. (c1806 Oxfordshire-10 Mar 1880 TAS)[On 11 Jul 1826 married his cousin Christiana Presnell (c1808 -1870) the daughter of his uncle John Presnell (c1786-1831)]
--*(3) Harriet Presnell (c1813 Oxfordshire – 4 Oct 1881 TAS)[On 20 Jul 1836 married her cousin John Presnell (1814-1888) the daughter of her uncle John Presnell (c1786-1831)]
--*(4) George William Presnell (c1815 Oxfordshire – 21 Nov 1881 VIC)

Thomas, Thomas Jnr, Harriet & George William immigrated on “Regalia” with Thomas’s mother Sarah on 30 Dec 1822.



*(3) James Presnell (c1775 Essex -9 Sep 1844 Hobart)

married 14 May 1797 London

Elisabeth Ann Doughty (c1763-9 Dec 1854 Hobart)

Children:
--*(1) William James Presnell (bap.8 Jul 1798 London-13 May 1884 VIC) Married Anne Harvey (1802-1872) 2 Nov 1857 Adelaide, married Susan Williams (1830-1890) 4 Dec 1872 Fitzroy, VIC.
--*(2) Mary Ann Presnell (bap.4 Jan 1802 London-)
--*(3) Harriet Presnell (bap.21 Aug 1803 London -7 Dec 1894 TAS)(Harriet married David Bird in 1823 in London)
--*(4) Caroline Presnell (25 May 1806 London-)
--*(5) Abraham Presnell (c1809 England-11 Jul 1878 Hobart)(married Ann McGalsen in London in 1826)

James, his wife Elisabeth Ann, his son Abraham, his daughter-in-law Ann, and his grand-daughter Ann Sarah arrived in Hobart on 20 May 1828 on “Wanstead”.

James’ son William James had immigrated earlier on “Jessie” on 26 Feb 1821.

Also immigrating to Tasmania, date unknown (but after 1825), was James’ daughter Harriet with her husband and family.




*(4) John Presnell (c1786 Essex-20 May 1831 TAS)

married 2 Aug 1807 London

Eleanor Skelton (c1785-3 Feb 1834)

Children:
--*(1) Christiana Presnell (c1808 London -3 Sep 1870 TAS) [On 11 Jul 1826 married her cousin Thomas Presnell (c1806 -1880) the daughter of her uncle Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843)]
--*(2) William Presnell (c1810 London-bef.1826)
--*(3) Thomas Presnell (27 Jan 1812 London-bef.1831)(date of birth from baptismal record)
--*(4) John Presnell (bap.9 Jan 1814 London-29 Jul 1888 Tas) [On 20 Jul  1836 married his cousin Harriet Presnell (bap.1813–1881) the daughter of her uncle Thomas Presnell (c1769-1843)]
--*(5) Frederick Presnell (bap.30 Mar 1817 London -1 Jul 1906 Melbourne) [Married Anne Thomasine Warren on 28 Oct 1856 TAS]
--*(6) Eleanor Elizabeth Presnell (6 Jun 1819 London – 21 Aug 1891 TAS) (date of birth from baptismal revord) [Married James Dedman McGee on 24 Sep 1838 TAS]
--*(7) William Presnell (11 Jan 1826 TAS -8 Jul 1904 TAS) [Married Marcy Ellen Giblett on 8 May 1854 in Launceston]

This family arrived on “Midas” on 13 Jan 1821.

Offline Ausjules

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 27 June 13 12:57 BST (UK) »
Wow :) that is an amazing amount of information, thankyou so much for taking the time to share it. No wonder everyone was so confused lol anyway, thankyou thankyou thankyou :)
Rusk, hangan, hartley, mccombe, county cavan ireland.  - Knight, hance, surrey  - slater, king, paisley renfrewshire scotland.

Offline Webby

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #14 on: Friday 05 July 13 07:42 BST (UK) »
I'm related through William Presnell and Ann Fowler (Ann arrived Third Fleet "Royal Admiral) (not to be confused with Elizabeth FOWLES or Ann FOWLES - totally different person is this Ann/Elizabeth Fowles  who arrived on the First Fleet "Lady Penryn".

Although this Ann was on NI - she had returned to the mainland and appeared back in Parramatta where she married to a John HOLT in 1801.  This Ann was variously known as Elizabeth Breeze, Ann Foals, Ann Fairles and Ann Fowles.  This Ann could have been the person with John Rouglas/Rouglass.  He had been on NI since 1790.  John Rouglass also arrived in Tasmania aboard the "City of Edinburgh" with the Presnell family in 1808.  No wife or children were mentioned with him.

Sarah who was born c 1808 either on Norfolk Island or when the family arrived in Tasmania, her birth is not registered.  This family is so confusing and I have spent many years trying to figure everyone out.  Sarah (child) is mentioned with William and Ann together with Elizabeth, Thomas, James (child)  in the 1816/1817 Port Dalrymple Muster Book.

I do know that the Sarah Presnell (nee Tooth) in Sussex was actually still alive after Sarah Presnell (William's mother) had died in Tasmania. So it looks as though it's the Essex Presnell's who are related.  I did find a baptism of a William Presnell on the 9/6/1776 at Leyton Essex to Thomas & Sarah.

There certainly were quite a number of Presnell's who came to Tasmania.  And I think possibly they were quite a few brothers and cousins who arrived.  Another problem is that most of the brothers named each of their children after other family members really creating even more paper work!.

My Sarah Presnell married Thomas PREGNELL a butcher in Hobart in 1826. They also took over the running of the "Black snake Inn" at one time from her cousin Thomas Presnell (Christiana's husband). The owner of the Inn at one time was also her father William!.

Ann Fowler/Presnell died in Hobart in 1846 and the informant was her daughter Elizabeth Chapman (nee Robinson nee Presnell).  Sarah died of an Epileptic fit at the young age of 31 years.

Anyway, a bit more information for you!!

Regards
Webby.
 

Wing, Isted,Lashmore, - Horsted Keynes
Green, Goldsmith,Mockford,Blackmar,Geer - Falmer & Brighton
Wing, Hack, Gray, Haywood Brighton
White, Vass, Tolhurst, Thatcher Sussex
Attree, Patching, Earle - Barcombe Sussex
Davies, Owen, - Llangrannog, Cardiganshire, Wales
Thomas, Burn - Gwennap,Cornwall
Rice - Portland,Dorset

Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #15 on: Friday 05 July 13 08:37 BST (UK) »
If your read throught the thread you will see that it agrees that the Sarah Tooth is the wrong Sarah. But the baptism of a William Presnell on the 9/6/1776 at Leyton Essex to Thomas & Sarah is also incorrect. The Leyton Essex family is the wrong family.

Offline Webby

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 06 July 13 00:21 BST (UK) »
Sorry....didn't mean to insinuate that the William baptised in Essex was the correct William  - just that there was a William Presnell baptised at about the same time to fit his age when he was transported.  No-one has proven which family William was connected with, it's not even certain whether he was from Essex at all.

Webby
Wing, Isted,Lashmore, - Horsted Keynes
Green, Goldsmith,Mockford,Blackmar,Geer - Falmer & Brighton
Wing, Hack, Gray, Haywood Brighton
White, Vass, Tolhurst, Thatcher Sussex
Attree, Patching, Earle - Barcombe Sussex
Davies, Owen, - Llangrannog, Cardiganshire, Wales
Thomas, Burn - Gwennap,Cornwall
Rice - Portland,Dorset

Offline keinname

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Re: PRESNELL of Tasmania - origins?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 06 July 13 01:35 BST (UK) »
William's trial transcripts show that he was from Essex.

It's just that the demographics of the Leyton Essex family show this to be the wrong family.