Peter Sabey of Roxton

[bedfordshire boy]

John, In Thurleigh transcript what does it have to say about Elizabeth Sabey buried 1765? Wife of John, hopefully!

Thanks

David

[johnP-bedford]

Yes David, she is the wife of John Sabey.... most likely of Backnoe Farm Bolnhurst, ne Hull, married in Wilden etc...

[bedfordshire boy]

Thanks John. That's what I was hoping for. She was dead by the time John made his will in 1777, but it's nice to be able to pin down a date, if only to narrow down the birth of son James

Not celebrating your first weekend of retirement in a local hostelry?

David

[Hemmum]

If I have followed the recent developments (and I hope my notes are coherent);

Charlotte White bapt 3 May 1767 in Felmersham and married 1790 in Bolnhurst to Francis Sabey born between 1760 and 1763

Charlotte's father Robythan White had previously married in 1753 to Dinah perhaps Harris at Peterborough Cathedral Peterborough (seems grand!). Dinah White wife of Rubenthan was buried at Bolnhurst 30 Mar 1764.

Robythan White a widower then married Elizabeth Aspitall, widow at Bolnhurst on 11 Oct 1766.  (these were Charlottes parents)

Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms had previously married William Asptall at Bolnhust in Apr 1760.

Robythan and Elizabeth had two children baptised in Felmersham. Charlotte in 1767 and Samuel White in 1770.
Samuel White possibly was the witness to Francis Sabey and Charlottes marriage in Bolnhurst in 1790. Francis and Charlotte probably named their first son after her brother Samuel.

Francis Saby and Charlotte named their first daughter Dinah.
It is significant that Dinah is name the White family. I have certainly seen before the practise of naming the first daughter of a second marriage after the deceased wife. Charlotte was baptised only 7 months after the marriage so Robythan and Elizabeth did not name their first daughter after his first wife. I wondered if Robythan and his first wife Dinah had a daughter Dinah after who Francis and Charlotte named their daughter (i.e Dinah step sister who she may have grown up with)? But I have not found a Dinah anyone bapt Bolnhurst during the period of the marriage 1753 and 1766 death of Dinah the wife or any Dinah d of Dinah in Beds, Northants or Cambs. Nor any evidence of the White family baptising children at Bolnhurst so although Elizabeth Elms may have been from Bolnhurst, Robythan was not (but of course there is the NC issue!)

Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms may have been baptised;
Elizabeth Elms d of Thomas and Elizabeth bap 9 Nov 1735 Bolnhurst Beds. Although the IGI gives her mother as Elizabeth I think this may be an error as all of the other children of Thomas Elms baptised between 1725-1741 in Bolnhurst give the mother as Ann (probably nee Wyott)

One of the other children of Thomas and Ann Elms was Francis Elms baptised 1741.

Francis Elms probably married twice the first time to Mary Hartop in 1769. His wife Mary was probably buried 1776 in Bolnhurst. 
I wonder if there are any notes on Mary’s marriage or burial which may link her to;

Sarah Sabey (d of John) who married Thomas Hartop in 1771 at Bolnhurst. The marriage witnesses to Sarah Sabey’s were; Francis Elms & Thomas Spencer

Francis Elms was probably the brother of Francis Sabey’s mother in law Elizabeth.
This would link Francis Saby to the John Sabey farmer of Blackenoe NC but also to Joseph Sabey who married three times!! Who is also a possible father of Francis Sabey

Francis Elms also witnessed the marriage of;
Joseph Sabey widower, to Eliz Lovell widow on 4 Dec 1770 Bolnhurst
(The other marriage witness was Rachel Peck - Samuel Peck witnessed the marriage of Robythan White and Elizabeth nee Elm, the parents of Charlotte White)
 
Who was Francis Elms the marriage witness in 1770 and 1771?
Are there any notes on Francis Elms marriage to Mary Hartop 11 Oct 1769 at Bolnhurst or to Hannah Withrow 14 Feb 1779 at Bolnhurst Beds (also on Eaton Socon Batch)
Or perhaps to confirm the age of Francis Elms buried 1780 at Bolmhurst Beds.

This Francis Elms is probably the son of Thomas and Ann Elms baptised 1741 but strangely, I found an Adult baptism for Francis Elms born 1706 bap 11 Jun 1727 at Bolnhurst Beds.

Francis Sabey was baptised as an Adult on the same day he married.
Perhaps this Francis Elms was baptised so he could marry but I cannot see a marriage for Francis Elms around this time. Was he related to Joseph and John Sabey, by marriage would be helpful?!?

Francis Sabey 1760 was named after a Francis. Francis Elms is seems significant in the Sabey family and I wonder if Frances Sabey was named after a Francis Elms.

Then I found:
Bedford and Luton Archive Service. Reference P46/15/1
Title: Bond of Francis Elms, Bolnhurst, blacksmith, re expected child of Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, singlewoman. Date Free Text 14 May 1767

Francis Sabey was born between 1760-1763 so perhaps this child was not him.

Francis Elm married Mary Hartop in 1769 (after the birth of the child of Mary Sabey in 1767)

There was also possibly another Francis Sabey in Bolnhurst who was born 1706 and baptised 1727.

Who was Mary Sabey singlewoman in Bolnhurst in 1767 who had a child by Francis Elms. I cannot see a baptism for Mary in Bolnhurst?

It all seems a bit complicated but I would appreciate any other information or ideas!

[bedfordshire boy]

Francis Sabey 1760 was named after a Francis.

He was baptised aged about 30 as Francis. That's all we know. We don't know if he was named after anybody.

Francis Sabey was born between 1760-1763 so perhaps this child was not him.

Where do these dates come from? He was baptised aged about 30 in 1790. I would give that a couple of years either side, so perhaps as early as 1758. His age on burial in 1833 was 67. If accurate then that gives a birth of 1766. But burial ages were often inaccurate, as may have been the case here if his baptism age is anything like accurate.

If he really was the illegitimate son of Francis Elms and Mary Sabey then his birth would match up better with his burial age.

[Hemmum]

We don't know if he was named after anybody.

Sorry, just an assumption as most children were often named after a family member at that time.

Thank you for the correction on his burial age. Francis therefore was born between 1760 and 1766 and as you quite correctly say aged at burial are not always correct

[bedfordshire boy]

Who was Mary Sabey singlewoman in Bolnhurst in 1767 who had a child by Francis Elms. I cannot see a baptism for Mary in Bolnhurst?

I like this idea!

IF, and it's a big if, Mary was the daughter of the non-conformist John, then she died before 1777 when he made his will as she's not mentioned in it. There's a burial in Thurleigh in 1774 of a Mary Sabey. Is this her? If anysomeone has Thurleigh transcript and being newly retired has time on their hands perhaps they would be kind enough to have a look (thanks John!). It would explain why there's no baptism of Francis, and why he was non-conformist himself.

The entries in the back of Bolnhurst PR take on a new significance now that John has established that Sarah was 24 in the Marriage Licence Allegation of Oct 1771. One of the earlier births surely must have been William, but could the other have been Mary? I haven't got any other Marys in that part of Beds who would fit. But why would John not have made a bequest to his grandson Francis, if indeed he was his grandson, notwithstanding that he was illegitimate?

[Hemmum]

Would much be revealed in the

Bond of Francis Elms, Bolnhurst, blacksmith, re expected child of Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, singlewoman. Date Free Text 14 May 1767

[bedfordshire boy]

Usually nothing more than what's in the extract.