Liddle family

[pcjr]

Hi,
Trying to find my 3x gt/mothers parents. Elizabeth Reid nee Liddle was born in Dunse,about 1812/1814. She married in 1834 at St Cuthberts to William Reid.Her fathers name was Robert Liddle, mother's is unknown at this stage.

William's birth place is Berwickshire, later on he tells us   Haddington, East Lothian. born about 1815/ 1817.Looking for parents also.

My came to NZ in 1859, so their is no more census. the shipping lists dont tell where they were born.
 Would be most grateful of any info
Thanks
pcjr

[AMBLY]

Hi pcjr

I may help to know the names and birth order of their children - the Scottish naming pattern was strongly followed in many families and can provide possible clues.

All I can see from Census 1841/1851 are the following (& the first 2 on the IGI):
Agnes - b. 1835 Ayton, Berwickshire
Janet  - chr 1840 Cockburnspath, Berwickshire
Elizabeth  - abt 1842  Cockburnspath, Berwickshire
James  - abt 1849 Cockburnspath, Berwickshire
Robert - 1851 Oldhamstocks, Berwickshire

There are clear gaps - btw Agnes & Janet, btw Elizabeth & James  - do you know of any other children who had perhaps died young & before 1851?  Were there other children after 1851 (who came to NZ) and did any of the children (or indeed William & Elizabeth) sprout middle names in NZ records? 

Can't pick a pattern for the boys.  But I will guess that Robert b 1851, may have been  named after an earlier child of the same name who died (this was a common practise) [see below]

However the girls look more promising :
1st after mother's mother -  Elizabeth's mother Agnes?
2nd after father's mother - William's mother Janet?
3rd after mother - after Elizabeth herself

There are submitted records on IGI of issue to a Robert LIDDLE & Agnes DICKERSON in Duns /  Bunkel -  an Elizabeth not amongst them though. Still looks possible.

The fact they married in 1834 in Midlothian (submitted IGI record)  - was this the actual marriage, or just the Banns, do you know?  If it was the actual marriage, then possible Elizabeth's parents were living in St Cuthberts as it was traditional to marry in the parish of the bride.  However, if this was just a Banns record, it's possible this is where William was living and again possible there is another record of Banns, followed by the Marriage proper all in Berwickshire where Elizabeth's parish was

The 1841 Census only gave Y or N for place of Scottish birth.  Yes =  born in county of residence, or No = not born in county of residence.  It was extremely common for the wrong Y or N to be used.  William says Haddington (East Lothian) in 1851 and I'd definitely place more value on that.

On the IGI is:
William REID b 3 Apr 1813, Aberlady, East Lothian
Parents:William REID & Janet HOG

Janet would fit the naming theory  (and it is only a theory!). If William's father was also William it takes the 1st place in a pattern. The 3rd place is therefore no longer reserved for the child's father's name. This is why I think a son named William was born 1st and died, and a son named Robert was born 2nd and also died & maybe  after James was born in 1849.

This may all prove wrong, or it may be right in parts or wholly  - the problem is finding that link to prove it one way or the other.

Have you obtained all possible information from NZ records (death records, burial, NZ Newspaper reports - which may name parents  etc?

Have you the actual Parish Marriage record for William & Elizabeth  - while not a lot is expected on these, sometimes there is more than we think and clues as well. Same for the christening records of the children - if a godparent is named, for example or a specific address (especially for Agnes; if she was born first it may have been at the home of her maternal grandmother (another common custom).

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hi pcjr

Another forum has a topic on this family (not sure if the nz poster is yourself) - the 1 reply on there says:

http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=470
"  The marriage record (11 Mar 1834) for William Reid and Elizabeth Liddle provides useful information. William was a Corn and Hay Dealer, and Robert Liddle was a cattle dealer in Coldingham..  I would suggest looking at the 1841 and 1851 census returns. This could give you Elizabeth's mother and also provide additional information to help find William's parents. Cheers, Ward "

Also found:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BORDER/2003-01/1041937843
"The family name is LIDDLE or LIDDEL and they lived in Duns (or Dunse). Robert Liddle was born in 1776 and he married an Agnes Dickerson in 1801. They had three sons - the oldest was James, born 1801, who was my great, great grandfather; David, born 1807 and Robert, born 1812. There may be other children "

This appears to be the 1851 Census for Robert & Agnes:

1851: West Gate End, Dunbar, East Lothian
Head: Robert LIDDLE Senr, 78, Cow Dealer, b Coldingham, Berwickshire
Wife: Agnes LIDDLE 75, b Duns, Berwickshire

Can't locate them yet in 1841 - but I am backing that LIDDLE/DICKERSON is the right parental unit for your Elizabeth. Cow Dealer/Cattle dealer - not uncommon, but uncommon enough in a sea of Ag Labs! 

Cheers
AMBLY

[pcjr]

Hi Ambly,
Many thanks for the info, all good points.
No more children were born in NZ, not sure about any others born in Scotland either, but will try and see what I can find.
Will work my way though the reply.
Thanks
pcjr

[pcjr]

Hi Ambly,
The mystery deepens of William Reid's parents.
Today I rec'd more info  on William death here in NZ.His parents are down as James Reid and  ? Reid nee Hogg,William born Berwickshire.
After rereading your notes you asked me if I have the PR's for William and Elizabeth marriage, answer is no.
But now what I would like to know is, could someone please lookup the PR
for the marriage of Janet Hogg and William/James Reid around 1807 at
Edinburgh or Inveresk,Midlothian,
I seem to get the feeling that his name was William James or James William Reid.

Thanks
pcjr

[trish1120]

Possible Marriage;
William REID, Jane HOGG, 19 Nov 1806, Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midllothian
(IGI Extracted)

I cant help with a lookup but just wanted to comment that depending on who gave the info on Williams NZ Death Cert it is possible the info is incorrect re Williams Fathers christian name .

Trish

[pcjr]

Hi,
Many thanks for the info, I see that you also are researching the Reids from Berwickshire. Any connection to Reids of Christchurch New Zealand?

pcjr

[mknz]

Greetings pcjr

I know that this posting was probably a few years ago but have just come across it.

William Reid and Elizabeth Liddle (Liddell) are my great great grandparents. My great grandmother eas their eldest daughter Agnes Jane who married Robert Kay (Keay) in 1860 in Christchurch.

Over the years I have done a bit of research on this branch of my family but I am afraid that I have spent more time on the other legs of the family.

I have spent a bit of time over the years in Scotland looking at family history stuff as well as enjoying the place and have stayed in the Edinburgh area, Berwick (coldsburnspath and coldingham) and Fife where my Kay, Allan and Miller ancestors are from.

However the reid's have always been a bit of an enigma as the boat they arrived on (Cameo) at Lyttleton in July 1859. Robert Kay and Agnes Reid stayed in Christchurch for a short time before moving to Dunedin where they remained.

I do have some information of a court case where William Reid was accused by the insurance company of burning his 'poor quality' oat stooks whist faming near Cust in Canterbury. His two local sons in law - Wooding & Hole both gave some evidence at the inquest.

It seems that one of the sons died in a farming accident and the other son moved to the North Island (inland Wanganui area) after his father died. I have been in contact at some stage with a woman who lives in Queensland who filled me in a little on the Reid descendents on that side of the family.

But what were the Reid family origins - the Cameo ship records indicated they were emigrating from County Antrim - Northern Ireland but were the shipping records incorrect. Did he move from Scotland to Northern Ireland for a while before he emigrated to NZ ?

The 1841 Scotland census has William & Elizabeth Reid living at Edmondsdean farm in the Cockburnspath area of Berwick - at that time Elizabeth Liddle's parents were working on a neighbouring farm - (Redheugh) -Robert Liddle (65), Agnes Liddle (60), David Liddle (35), Robert Liddle (25). But no sign of any of them in the 1851 census - were they in Northern Ireland.

As for William Reid's parents - there is nothing on his wedding certificate - have not got a copy of his death certificate which may give a hint.

I am not sure just where in the Reid family tree that you fit into but would like to hear your story.

I have always had a thought that the family needs to erect a gravestone on their grave in Addington cemetery. The grave next door to theirs has a gravestone to the daughter, Janet (Wooding).

I remember my father talking of his Great Aunt Hole (Elizabeth) who lived to such a great age - have a photograph of my Dad's cousin, Cyril Kay (Of NZ and UK Air Force fame) with Graet Aunt Hole on her 101st birthday.

I hope that this note finds you and I would love to hear back from you.

Martin Kay
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[trish1120]

Welcome to Rootschat Martin.

Hopefully pcjr  will repkly to you soon.

Sorry pcjr but for some reason did not see your question from 2011.
No my Reids left Berwickshire for Northumberland about 1810. One married into the Purdy Family and my branch of the Purdys arrived in NZ 1869.

Trish