Author Topic: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828  (Read 3210 times)

Offline Redworth

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JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« on: Wednesday 07 March 12 22:20 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

I am looking for any information on John Redworth or his family.  The only record that I can find is in the 1861 Census.  He is Listed as:-

Living in a Lodging House in Monmouth with a wife and child.

John Redworth Head age 33  Monmouth Militia  born  Radnorshire, Old Radnor.

Mary Ann          Wife         36                                          Warminster Wiltshire

Mary Ann          Dau            1                                          Hereford

I don't have access to local or Parish or the Military Records.  Any help greatly appreciated.

Another piece of information could be helpful in Identifying the correct John Redworth is that that my grandfather William Redworth had passed on to him from his father Joseph Redworth a Rifle/Musket which I believe may have belonged to John Redworth.  (What armaments did the Militia Use?)

Further information.  My great grand father Joseph Redworth, although was born at Hampstead Middlesex 1854, my mother told me that he spoke with a Welsh accent so strong that very few people understood him in Kent where the family settled in the 1900's; because of this he was known as "Old Joe the Welshman".

Ray
Mortlock. Redworth. Tiday. Sutton. Boswell. Dighton. Chapman. Lee. Scamp. Smith. Rutherford. Andrews. McBride. Eaton. Gadney. Buckley. Nelson. Norley. Kirk. Gumble. Loverage. Hewett. Delonette. Barnet.

Offline CaroleW

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 07 March 12 22:35 GMT (UK) »
I finally found the 1861 entry which is indexed as Kedward and image appears to support the first letter being K not R
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Offline CaroleW

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 07 March 12 22:41 GMT (UK) »
A possibility for their daughters birth

Births September qtr 1859     
Mary Ann Kedward    Leominster  6a 470


Ruled out - found on Hereford 1861 with parents

No Redworth marriage to a Mary Ann
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Offline osprey

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #3 on: Friday 09 March 12 14:41 GMT (UK) »
I think that name begins with a K as well. It's not like the capital Rs further down the page. Possible birth for child

Mary Ann Kidward march qtr 1860 Newport Mon vol 11a pg 172

Unless there's more than one Joseph Redworth born Hampstead in 1854, the only one I can see has a father called James, not John

1861 8 Back Lane, Hampstead RG9/93 folio 18 pg 30
James Redworth head widower 41 general labourer
Phoebe dau 8
Joseph son 6
all born Hampstead

Do you have the marriage cert for Joseph? I take it he is the one in Lewisham for the 1891 census with wife Kate, eldest child appears to be Justinia.

I'm struggling to find birth regs for the children. Baptisms for Justine & William are online & this birth reg for one of the children
Francis Redworth march qtr 1887 Lewisham vol 1a pg 1140

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Redworth

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #4 on: Friday 09 March 12 19:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi to both Carolw and Osprey, 

Thanks to both of you for your responses.  On closer inspection I too can now see the difference between the R and the K.  Finding the correct Joseph Redworth that is acceptable to known facts has been more than difficult.  Joseph is of unproven Parentage.  He does not show in any record until the Census of 1891 where he is recorded with recognisable family.  (This was recorded incorrectly also.)

Joseph Redworth c.1854  has no birth record but gives his place of birth on the 1891 census as Hampstead Midsx.   He took Kate Boswell as his partner without the benefit of a recorded marriage.  He lived with Romanies as a Romani and had a family, where on 22 Dec 1910, he had a Civil marriage to his partner Kate Boswell at the Registry Office Woolwich London.   His residence at the time is given as "Caravan" Manorway, Plumstead Marsh.  He gives his father's name as JOHN REDWORTH, Deceased.  Their Witness's were my grand parents, their son and his wife, William and Elizabeth Redworth.  (Both signed their names)

I have seen every census record for John Redworth's from 1841 thru to 2011.  with no connecting results either by age or locality.   Others have taken the record of James Redworth c.1854 from the 1861 census as the father because the birth years match.  Although James is shown to be a Widower with two childred, Phoebe and Joseph (Showing his same birth year) there is no further Census record containing them.   Therefore, no evidence to support this record as the same Joseph.  (or was Joseph sent to live with relatives, perhaps in wales?)

As stated in my origional post, my mother new the old chap until he passed away in 1936 age 82years.  Among many things that she told me was that he was known as "Old Joe the Welshman"  because of his strong welsh accent.  Although his origins were from Middlesex, he apparently had lived many years in Wales, hence my current searches thru Welsh records.

One more point of interest.  On my grandfather's Marriage Certificate,  my grandfather's name is spelt William "Redworth"  while his father's name is spelt Joseph "Ridworth".          Census searches on the Ridworth name does show in the 1871 census a John Ridworth with a son Joseph bn c. 1851. (not 1854)  and the previous census of 1861  seems to be showing the same family but spelt "Redworth" BUT Joseph seems have become Joshua.

My conclusion is that Joshua Redworth in 1861 age 11 then again shown as Joseph Ridworth 1871 age 20 may well be one and the same, but would still require a big leap of faith to say it is my Great Grandfather, any more than James's son Joseph is.

I write all this so as to stop others going over the same ground again. 

Thank you both,

Redworth

Mortlock. Redworth. Tiday. Sutton. Boswell. Dighton. Chapman. Lee. Scamp. Smith. Rutherford. Andrews. McBride. Eaton. Gadney. Buckley. Nelson. Norley. Kirk. Gumble. Loverage. Hewett. Delonette. Barnet.

Offline osprey

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #5 on: Friday 09 March 12 22:37 GMT (UK) »
have you seen the baptisms of Justine & William? The address given for Joseph & Kate on Justine's baptism is given as Kilburn Fields (she was baptised the same day as a daughter of Levi Boswell). On William's baptism in 1876, the address is given as 4 Latimer Road, near Wormwood Scrubs. So, that's a couple of records from before 1891.

Joseph may not appear with James & Phoebe on another census, but Phoebe is on the 1851 census, father must have given wrong age on the 1861 - her baptism was 3/3/1850.

1850 Crockets Court, Hampstead HO107/1492 folio 241 pg 30
James Redworth head mar 32 labourer
Elizabeth wife laundress b. Willesden
James son 11
Fanny dau 9
Mary dau 6
William son 4
Phoebe dau 1
all born Hampstead except Elizabeth

He also appears on the 1871 census with James who has another wife
9 Circus Road, St Pancras RG10/242 folio 19 pg 29
Jas.  Redworth head mar 53 labourer b. Hampstead
Car wife 46 laundress b. Sussex Rye
Jos. son 15 labourer b. Hampstead
Laura dau 14 b. Hampstead
Car dau 10 b. Hampstead
Ellen dau 2 b. Kentish Town
Car Redworth snr shows up as Caroline in 1881

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #6 on: Friday 09 March 12 23:06 GMT (UK) »
This is a Redworth family in 1851 with lots of Highgate & Hampstead connections. This Joseph is a little older, however father's name correct?


John Redworth, 29 day labourer b     Hampstead
Sarah Redworth    27 b Highgate
William Redworth    7
Sarah Redworth    2
Joseph Redworth    6 Mo
Charles Redworth    5

Living in the parish of Hornsey. Reference is Class HO107, Piece 1702 Folio 206, Page 39

The childrens' birthplaces swap about between Hampstead & Highgate

If your Jospeh in 1891 is the right one and has gypsy/traveller connections they do have a habit of switching surnames!

Offline Redworth

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Re: JOHN REDWORTH c.1828
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 10 March 12 21:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi to Osprey and Mabel,

Thank you both once again for taking the time to help.

I do have the record of William's baptism it is already in my tree.  http:// romani-ancestors com website no longer working 2013

I also have details of all James, Johns, and Josephs shown in all the Census years available, but I cannot find any corroborative records tying  Joseph to a
particular parentage.   I have also been in touch with my eldest surviving brother now 90 who has lived in Wales  getting on for 70 years.  He has confirmed
that his recollection of Joseph Redworth was that not only did he have a very broad accent he actually spoke welsh.   I cannot ignore this as a fact that cannot be overlooked  whilst trying to find a connection to his parents or substitute parents.   Once parentage is established it becomes easier to trace offspring.

I have searched all Census Years with Ancestry, Findmypast, and GenesReunited.  My cousin has done the same with Genealogy.  Neither of us has found
anything different than what Ancestry has to offer.   The Welsh Romany Site "Valleystream" has also been trying to help looking through their records without any luck.  The best guess at the moment is that If he was born 4/5 earlier than later records state, he would have had to come back from Wales for
later Census where the records appear.  Alternatively, If his natural father was James in 1861 where Joseph appears with a widowed father and then disappears until  1891, was he sent to live with relatives, friends etc to return South again, now speaking Welsh.  To me, it follows that my search must be within Wales.
Mortlock. Redworth. Tiday. Sutton. Boswell. Dighton. Chapman. Lee. Scamp. Smith. Rutherford. Andrews. McBride. Eaton. Gadney. Buckley. Nelson. Norley. Kirk. Gumble. Loverage. Hewett. Delonette. Barnet.