Author Topic: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming  (Read 14550 times)

Offline LUV

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Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« on: Tuesday 17 May 05 16:39 BST (UK) »
Regards all :)

My line supposedly is connect to "Laird of Cragganfearne Fleming".

Now, can anybody out there tell me where exactly is Cragganfearne? How would I get more information on this particular Fleming that was the Laird?

There seems to be a jump made from my John Fleming born about 1793, who married Ann Smith and then Charlotte Wallace in Logierait Parish, Perthshire (1822 & 1831 were the marriages) back to this gentleman and I am trying to follow this supposed conneciton with documentation or something to validate the claims made ??? by some enthusiastic distant relatives!

My John Fleming's parents were supposedly John Fleming and Janet Ross who married in Dowally in about 1790. Although I do not know this as fact! Further it was supposedly this John Fleming, the one that married Janet Ross, he was the son supposedly the Laird of Cragganfearne, but again I do not know this as fact ?

Who exactly was this Laird of Cragganfearne? His full name etc. and his wife?
Any help would be appreciated immensely. I have been through the OPR at Scotland's People and the IGI....I guess I am looking for verification in text, documents or such?

Please any enlightenment would be great!
LUV
WOODAGE (East London);
SPEAR (Laneast, Cornwall);
FRENCH (Rye/Hastings, Sussex);
PERCIVAL (Downe, Kent);
JARVIS (Houghton, Norfolk);
KING (Wortham,Suffolk- Hove, Sussex);
FLEMING(Logierait & Dowally, Perthshire);
LOVE (Ireland Co.?)

Offline ontchick

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 18 May 05 00:42 BST (UK) »
"Cragganfearne" was a small estate of 260 acres in Athole, Perthshire in the Highlands of Scotland.
There is no known 'birth' or 'forename' of Laird Fleming on record....that has ever been found. I have been searching for the name for many years as has most of the Flemings of my family.

John Fleming (the Lairds son) married Janet Ross in Mains of Killmoric, Dowally, Perth which was about three miles southwest of Cragganfearne.

Scarr (Yorkshire-North); Tipper (anywhere England); Fleming (Perth, Scotland); McDougall (Argyll, Scotland); Cole (England); Francis (England/Germany); Beagan and Madigans (Ireland); Ferrier (Angus, Scotland)

Offline tsm

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 17 September 05 04:17 BST (UK) »
LUV

Ontchick is right. And I have been searching for Laird Cragganfearn's christian name too. The few things that you both are missing though. Looking outside the box.
I mean: Cragganfearn was of course named after the area that he took care of. Back then you had to pay dues to the church for burial and baptism, in order for these occasions to put into the books. I mean Parish records. If no money, no recorded birth, no recorded death. Also, remember that the Jacobites war has been going on and the clans are coming together to fight for "freedom". Nearly 3000 Fleming's fought throughout the Jacobites war. If the mother's were left behind with children, they may of had to flee there homes. Hide. This may not be the case for Cragganfearn, but then again it may. His first name may have purposely vanished. I have found parish records of a Donald Fleming and Isobel Robertson baptising their 3 children in Perthshire, Tullimet. A John b 1767, Alexander b. 1770 and Janet b. 1772. This seems to fit. Laird Cragganfearn named his son after himself most likely. Therefore, Laird Cragganfearn quite possible could be named John born in same area, but in 1767 and had a brother that had children, who later married Douglas daughters. Cragganfearn Fleming marrying either a Douglas or Robertson (most likely Robertson) taking on the 270 acre land (that was in the family for 3 generations). The reason I mention Douglas or Robertson. I spoke with Jane at Blair Castle and she has documents showing who leased that 270 acres. She stated that no Fleming leased it, but 1st a Alex Douglas and 2nd a James Robertson. I believe James is Isobel Robertson's father and Laird Cragganfearn married into the land. Alot makes sense to me but I cannot prove it without a doubt. That's were you come in. You may be able to help. We may be able to help each other. Email: Moderator comment: Address removed to prevent spamming - please use the personal message facility to exchange e-mail addresses. Thank You ! Tahni


Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 20 September 06 13:56 BST (UK) »
Hi Fleming researchers

A bit of news for you. Cragganfearn was and is part of the Blair Atholl estate certainly back at least to the early 1700s. It is a farm lying east of Logierait and south of Tulliemet east of the confluence of the Rivers Tay and Tummel. The Laird of Cragganfearn was therefore either the 3th Duke of Atholl, a gentleman named John Murray (1729-1774) or the 4th Duke, also John Murray (1755-1830). The tenant of Cragganfearn in the 1740s was a man named Alexander Douglas, and his family may well have been there for sometime after that, I shall know for certain in a few days. So wherever the legend of the Fleming Laird of Cragganfearn came from it might be as well to take it with a pinch of salt, because with a Laird as powerful and longstanding as the Murray family already on the spot I doubt anyone else, (Douglases included,) stood a chance, unless they owned land in their own right elsewhere. In that case they would be Laird of the other property.

One other point which may help clarify this. In order to be a Laird one had to be a land owner so a tenant, (ie a man who rented property from the Laird or landowner) would definitely not qualify as Laird in any way shape or form.

Hope this helps and doesn't disappoint anyone too much. The information is straight from the rentals of the Atholl Estate. If anyone would like further details as this unfolds please let me know.

Have fun

Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening - Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Herts
Petley - Suffolk
Death - Suffolk
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Fayers/Faiers/Faires - Suffolk
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Oldham - Lancs
Priest - Hants
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck/Rysdyke - Netherlands, & New York
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Sanders - Hants
Urmson - Cheshire
Willis - Suffolk
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex

Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 27 September 06 11:22 BST (UK) »
Hi all

Herewith the details of the Douglas tenancy at Cragganfearn. They appear to have been there from around 1730 -1815, having taken over from a Cameron family who were there in 1707. Prior to that they may have been at Haugh of Tulliemet, but not as tenants.

Douglas of Craiganfearn
RENTALS
10 Dec 1730 Tack to James Douglas of Haugh in Tulliemet of Over Craggenfearn, possest by Camerons
Rental 1735 James Douglas (cannot write) pays 25 Scot
Rental 1732 Alex Douglas tack from 1738 40 Scots 19 Poultry 40 loads of peat
Rental 1754 Alex. Douglas 68, 27 poultry, 80 (loads of) peat
Rental 1765 Alex Douglas 3.13.4 sterling
Rental 1774 - 1815 James Douglas (This is a very badly kept Rental. none of the detail.)

Camerons are shown in Cragganfearn in 1707 Rental.

Tried to trace James Douglas in Haugh of Tulliemet but find in 1727 it is tenanted by Charles Robertson. It is likely that the tack of 1730 was James Douglas's first tenancy. Also in 1730 he paid his seat rent for Dowally Church for the firt time.

Also checked the list of "Fencible Men" the Duke of Atholl's fighting men, in 1707. It lists James and Alexander Douglas at Haugh of Tulliemet as well as John Henderson the tenant, his servant, and a Daniel Douglas."

Also found:
Douglas, Daniel, 32, Laborer, Cragganfearn, Logerait, Perthshire from Greenock to N.Y., 4 September 1817 on the "William", Purinton.

Hope this helps someone

Tickle

Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening - Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Herts
Petley - Suffolk
Death - Suffolk
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Fayers/Faiers/Faires - Suffolk
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Oldham - Lancs
Priest - Hants
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck/Rysdyke - Netherlands, & New York
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Sanders - Hants
Urmson - Cheshire
Willis - Suffolk
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex

Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 04 October 06 08:27 BST (UK) »
Hi all

A few more snippets of information again courtesy of Blair Castle Archives:

There was a Nether or Lower Craggan Fearn.

Tenants during the 18th century:

McInstalker 1707- (presumably) 1742

Robertson 1742 - 1774

More info as it arrives.

Take care

Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening - Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Herts
Petley - Suffolk
Death - Suffolk
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Fayers/Faiers/Faires - Suffolk
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Oldham - Lancs
Priest - Hants
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck/Rysdyke - Netherlands, & New York
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Sanders - Hants
Urmson - Cheshire
Willis - Suffolk
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex

Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 17 October 06 13:40 BST (UK) »
OK Folks

The last piece in the jigsaw: (for me anyway.)

18C Tenants at Balchallan:

1735-1742 Alex McGillewie

1755-1765 James and David Buttars

1774-1815 James Buttars

That's it, I'm done! If any further information is required you will find that by writing (snailmail) direct to Jane Anderson at Blair Castle, or to Perth Local Studies, AK Bell Library, York Place, Perth, PH2 8EP (hourly fee), you will be able to obtain primary source material and copies of register entries.

Good luck Fleming descendants everywhere.

Tickle



Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening - Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Herts
Petley - Suffolk
Death - Suffolk
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Fayers/Faiers/Faires - Suffolk
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Oldham - Lancs
Priest - Hants
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck/Rysdyke - Netherlands, & New York
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Sanders - Hants
Urmson - Cheshire
Willis - Suffolk
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex

Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #7 on: Monday 23 October 06 08:34 BST (UK) »
Morning all

The following appeared on the Perthshire Roostweb list this morning and I thought it might help get things in perspective.

"The plain fact is that apart from Lowlanders who adopted surnames much
earlier following the English style, those Scots of Norman French
descent
with mainly non Gaelic speaking ancestry and those able to link
directly on
to the Chiefly line of any of the Highland clans (the real clans not
the
made up 19th century fantasy stuff we recognise today) whose lineal
descent
was rote learned by the clan bards for generations, the remainder of
the
population simply didn't have surnames or family names before the 18th
century and without the benefit of DNA analysis really have no idea who
they
are by lineal descent and almost certainly are not who they think they
are.

The written records, with the exception of the lucky few, are simply
not
there for the overwhelming majority of the Scottish population or those
who
claim descent from them for any period pre 1780. Very few Parish
Registers
exist pre 1780 and those that do have huge gaps in them. Most people
were
too poor to waste money paying the Minister to register their marriage
or
children's baptisms, if they were baptised and anyway most ordinary
people
went through irregular marriage formats such as handfasting. Before the
Victorian era, most ordinary people made little or no distinction
between
legitimate and illegitimate children and most Lairds had lots of the
former
and often as many, if not more of the latter and no-one thought any
less of
them, especially not their half-siblings. Estate papers the length and
breadth of Scotland are full of details of Lairds making financial and
other
provision for their illegitimate offspring and as many junior army
officers
in the Peninsular Wars were the illegitimate sons of "great men" as
those
who were their sons and heirs.

I am lucky in that most of my Stirlingshire and Perthshire ancestors
are
known for between 10 and 12 generations, back to the time of the
Charles II
and hence can often be tagged on to well established family trees but
it is
still the case for most of them that cousins have to be separately
identified and second spouses disregarded to correctly place people.

As I have learned to my own cost, make no assumptions and assume
anything is
possible. It usually is!!
Keep up the good work
Mark

Mark Sutherland-Fisher
Director
Fisher (Holiday Enterprises) Ltd
email: mark[at]highland-family-heritage.co.uk"

Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [-- at --] with @

Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening - Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Herts
Petley - Suffolk
Death - Suffolk
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Fayers/Faiers/Faires - Suffolk
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Oldham - Lancs
Priest - Hants
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck/Rysdyke - Netherlands, & New York
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Sanders - Hants
Urmson - Cheshire
Willis - Suffolk
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex

Offline Cambron

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 12 November 06 14:03 GMT (UK) »
I have an interest in the camerons who were tenants at Cragganfearn prior to the Douglas family.In fact the Cameron and Douglas families intermarried in the 1730's.
Anyone have info on the Camerons of Cragganfearn?