LOOKUP 1841-1851 CENSUS,ST QUIVOX & NEWTON ON AYR

[piccarso]

Hi there everyone,

can someone help me with my "brickwall"? I'm looking for a sighting in 1841 Census for:

James Hendrie DOB, 1821 or 1825, Birthplace Ireland.

Susan Clark nee Pollock, age 29, DOB 1823, Birthplace Ireland.

I have a sighting for Susan Clark, in Main Street, Newton on Ayr, in the 1851 Census, it states, Washerwoman, living with a Daughter, Elizabeth age 9, and Son Thomas age 3.

I also have had a trace for a Marriage supposedly in St quivox in 1852 as per an entry in one of his Sons Birth Cert's born in Old Monklands where they moved to, done by Scottishorigins, but they came up with nothing.

The Information I'm trying to get is where in Ireland were these two born, as no Info on any Cert I have, with that I can go back further.

If you can help me with this I'd be very grateful.

Jim Hendry.

[kenjo]

Hi piccarso,
I would like to help,
But can you be more clear as to what facts you have
I feel that, if we can narrow down, where they lived definately. at what time....and when children married,  when...
you will find the deaths of these 2 people....
the certs will give the parents.
What do you think?
kenjo

[piccarso]

Hi piccarso,
I would like to help,
But can you be more clear as to what facts you have
I feel that, if we can narrow down, where they lived definately. at what time....and when children married,  when...
you will find the deaths of these 2 people....
the certs will give the parents.
What do you think?
kenjo

Kenjo, thx for replying, here's all I have on these persons:

I have son of his, William's, Bth Cert 1861, in Old Monklands Coatbridge, it only gives his Parents names and occupations, (Father a Railway Labourer) no Bthplace, but date and place of Marriage on Cert  for James and Susan is 1852 St Quivox, Ayr. this is the only mention of a Marriage of these two, he had three sons, Thomas 1845, Robert 1858, William 1861, two daughter's, Susan 1856, Mary Ann Circa 1854, and a Stepson Thomas Clark, Circa 1845, Ireland. (thats all I have on him)

Thomas, and he spells his surname as Hendry (I can't find his Bth Cert) on S.P, but I have his Marriage Cert for 1865, in which it gives his age as 20, making DOB 1845, Parents on Marr Cert, James and Susan, giving the Impression that either they were Married or Commonlaw at the time, this throws doubt on the 1852 Marriage.
Thomas's Bthplace is Kilmarnock, according to a later 1871 Census for himself.

Robert was born 1858 in Old Monkland, Coatbridge, his surname is given as Henry, and Parents James Henry and Susan Henry, no Bthplace for his parents on this Doc either, but this is definitely my G.Grandfather, as family legend handed down his address and it corresponds with Bth Cert.

I have only one other Bth Cert for a Daughter Susan, born 1856, District of Ayr, Dickiesland, George St, Wallacetown, St Quivox, (Occ of Father Railway Labourer again) no Bthplace of parents.

The other daughter is Mary Ann, and I can't trace a Bth Cert for her on S.P, one trace I did find is on LDS site for a bth to James and Susan Hendrie, of a daughter, Mary Ann, in 1854 Ayr, Ayr, Scotland, the other mention I have for her, is aged 8, on a Census for 1861 at old Monklands, this gives her DOB as approx 1854, but on this Census James her Father gives the Family name as Houden, why? I don't know, but its definitely them as it lists the whole Family, one of the people on rootschat, "Capricorn" is her handle found this for me after a great deal of searching 1861 cen, I would never have found it, I'm grateful to her.

I've had a trace done by scotsorigins in Coatbridge, (that was before I came across Williams Bth Cert), looking for a Marriage between James Hendrie and Susan Clark nee Pollock, but they came up a blank, no Marriage in Coatbridge, I also asked Ayr Library for a OPR trace in 1852, of a Marriage but they also returned a negative.

None of the cert's I have for James Hendrie and Susan Clark nee pollock, or his sons or daughter's, BMD, or Census's returns, gives James's or Susan's Birthplace, only entry is Ireland as Bthplace for these two.

If I could find a Bthplace for these two I could go back further, any help you could give me kenjo, would be appreciated.

Thats all for now

best regards

Jim.

[kenjo]

?
Sorry Piccarso,
I see, that you have had enormous, help from Lanark posting, and you have the death certificates. and are far further along in your tracking.
kenjo.

[piccarso]

?

Thought you could help with a llokup, obviously I was mistaken..............

[JAP]

Hi there everyone,
can someone help me with my "brickwall"? I'm looking for a sighting in 1841 Census for:
James Hendrie DOB, 1821 or 1825, Birthplace Ireland.
Susan Clark nee Pollock, age 29, DOB 1823, Birthplace Ireland.
<snip>
The Information I'm trying to get is ... where in Ireland were these two born, as no Info on any Cert I have, with that I can go back further. <snip>

Jim Hendry.

1841 CENSUS
Jim, your request on this thread is for a lookup in the 1841 census.  The 1841 census will be of no help in your quest to find exactly where in Ireland either James HENDRY or Susan (nee POLLOCK) CLARK later HENDRY came from.

In the 1841 census, birthplaces were merely recorded as born in the county or in Scotland (but not in the census county) or in England (E) or in Ireland (I) or foreign (F).

In any case, you are probably unlikely to find James on the 1841 Scotland census given that his son Thomas, from his previous marriage, had been born in Ireland ca 1845.

However, the important point is that precise birthplaces were NOT recorded in the 1841 census.  You also need to bear in mind that relationships were not stated in the 1841 census, and that ages for people aged 15 and over were meant to be rounded down to the nearest 5 (though this instruction was not always followed).

Nevertheless, the following may well be Susan CLARK in the 1841 census (especially given the age of Elisabeth - you mention that Susan had a 9yo daughter Elizabeth CLARK in the 1851 census).
This is from FreeCEN at
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/
Isle Lane, Ayr, Ayrshire
CLARK Francis, 22, Labourer, b Ireland
CLARK Susan, 20, b Ireland
CLARK Elisabth 10m, b Ayrshire
As you can see, the birthplaces are non-specific.

To recapitulate a couple of other matters:
THOMAS b ca 1845
I thought this had all been sorted out on the lengthy thread on the Lanarkshire board.

The story had to be (deduced especially from the 1861 census entry index - where, as I recall, the surname had been erroneously recorded) that both James HENDRY and Susan (nee POLLOCK) CLARK later HENDRY had children from previous marriages (including the fact that each of them had a son named Thomas from their previous marriages).  Presumably each of them had been widowed before they were married in 1852 in St Quivox, Ayrshire.

James HENDRY's son from his previous marriage (who would have been Susan's stepson) was Thomas HENDRY (aged 16, b Ireland in the 1861 census) and had been born in Ireland in about 1844/5.  I think you mentioned elsewhere that James's first wife was an Agnes GREEN?

Susan POLLOCK's son from her previous marriage to Mr CLARK (James's stepson) was Thomas CLARK (aged 12, b Ayr in the 1861 census) and had been born in Ayrshire in about 1848/9.

MARRIAGE OF JAMES + SUSAN
Have you followed up with the National Archives of Scotland and/or the Roman Catholic Church to see whether any records of the Roman Catholic church in St Quivox (Wallacetown) survive in case James and Susan were RC?
Though do always remember that - given that their marriage was before the start of Statutory Registration which began in 1855 - it may well be that there was NEVER any record of their marriage at all, or that NO record of their marriage survives.

SOME OBVIOUS QUESTIONS
No doubt you will ask why Thomas HENDRY gave varying ages, gave his parents as James and Susan, and gave his birthplace as Scotland (if indeed this is what happened).
Well, one certain thing is that there were plenty of errors and confusion on certificates re ages, re birthplaces and (when people had been brought up by a step-parent from an early age) re the names of parents.

It might be useful to list the full details of every record you have for Thomas HENDRY (however spelled).

Incidentally, have you traced Thomas CLARK?

JAP

[piccarso]

Jap,

Thx I saw the entry for Susan Clark in 1841, looks like her, although her age is recorded as 20, and I have a different DOB for her, I understand that ages can be wrongly recorded, but her Daughter Elizabeth points toward this being Susan, and if County's were not recorded on 1841 Census, it looks like I've very little chance of determining their actual birthplaces, except by through the R.C Church, Columba House, and I'm waiting a reply from them at present, over a week now.

I know Thomas Hendrie is recorded as born 1845 Ireland in 1861 Census, but I have his Marriage Cert for 1865, on which he records his Mother as Susan Hendrie... surely he must have known his own Mother, I must believe he was born in Scotland as Susan was is recorded in 1841 with Francis Clark in Ayr, as you have shown.
Susan and James Hendrie must have been together in Ayrshire around 1845 when he was born.

I have him on 1871 Census as born Kilmarnock, and 1881 as born Scotland, so what we deduced from the 1861 Census under Houden must be erroneous, like also the surname is wrong although the right Family.

I know I also mentioned a previous wife Agnes Green, to James Hendrie, but none of his kids Cert's record her as their Mother, its only mentioned on his Dth Cert, yes, that Marriage was probably in Ireland, but I can find no trace of her, I've also tried to trace Thomas Clark through S.P and Freecen, but no trace avail.

I'm grateful for all the help you have given me, without help from you and other's I'd be in Limbo, so thx, I'll let you know when I hear from Columba house.

All for now.

Regards

Jim.

[JAP]

I know Thomas Hendrie is recorded as born 1845 Ireland in 1861 Census, but I have his Marriage Cert for 1865, on which he records his Mother as Susan Hendrie... surely he must have known his own Mother, I must believe he was born in Scotland as Susan was is recorded in 1841 with Francis Clark in Ayr, as you have shown.
Susan and James Hendrie must have been together in Ayrshire around 1845 when he was born.

Jim, you are getting yourself into a bit of a muddle, I fear ; )

Commonsense says to me that Susan (POLLOCK) later CLARK later HENDRIE must not have been with her second husband James HENDRIE around 1845 and must not have been the mother of James's son Thomas HENDRIE (this is the Thomas we have as James's son, age 16, b Ireland in the 1861 census).

To me, it doesn't make any sense to suggest that Susan had a son called Thomas HENDRIE with James ca 1845.  Why not?  Because, a few years later, Susan had a son Thomas CLARK - she'd hardly have named this son Thomas if she already had a son named Thomas!  We have Thomas CLARK aged 3 with Susan in the 1851 census - was she recorded as a widow?, any sign of Francis? any sign of James HENDRIE? or of an older son called Thomas HENDRIE?!; and we have Thomas CLARK as James's stepson, age 12, born Ayr in the 1861 census.

Put your faith in the 1861 census where the information would have been provided by James HENDRIE and/or Susan POLLOCK.  At that stage, both James and Susan surely knew the ages of the two boys (both named Thomas - one 16 and one 12), their places of birth, and their relationship to James (the older Thomas being James's son, and the younger Thomas being James's stepson).

And do accept that it would have been very easy in later documents for Thomas HENDRIE - or whoever it was who provided the information - to muddle up who was his mother (or what that really meant), where he was born, and how old he was. 

JAP

[piccarso]

I know Thomas Hendrie is recorded as born 1845 Ireland in 1861 Census, but I have his Marriage Cert for 1865, on which he records his Mother as Susan Hendrie... surely he must have known his own Mother, I must believe he was born in Scotland as Susan was is recorded in 1841 with Francis Clark in Ayr, as you have shown.
Susan and James Hendrie must have been together in Ayrshire around 1845 when he was born.

Jim, you are getting yourself into a bit of a muddle, I fear ; )

Commonsense says to me that Susan (POLLOCK) later CLARK later HENDRIE must not have been with her second husband James HENDRIE around 1845 and must not have been the mother of James's son Thomas HENDRIE (this is the Thomas we have as James's son, age 16, b Ireland in the 1861 census).

To me, it doesn't make any sense to suggest that Susan had a son called Thomas HENDRIE with James ca 1845.  Why not?  Because, a few years later, Susan had a son Thomas CLARK - she'd hardly have named this son Thomas if she already had a son named Thomas!  We have Thomas CLARK aged 3 with Susan in the 1851 census - was she recorded as a widow?, any sign of Francis? any sign of James HENDRIE? or of an older son called Thomas HENDRIE?!; and we have Thomas CLARK as James's stepson, age 12, born Ayr in the 1861 census.

Put your faith in the 1861 census where the information would have been provided by James HENDRIE and/or Susan POLLOCK.  At that stage, both James and Susan surely knew the ages of the two boys (both named Thomas - one 16 and one 12), their places of birth, and their relationship to James (the older Thomas being James's son, and the younger Thomas being James's stepson).

And do accept that it would have been very easy in later documents for Thomas HENDRIE - or whoever it was who provided the information - to muddle up who was his mother (or what that really meant), where he was born, and how old he was. 

JAP

Jap,

Yup...you're right, muddled is the word, I take your comment's on board, and agree with them, I'll have to wait on Columba House getting back to me, and as you rightly say, I may "not even then" obtain Birthplace of James, so thx again.

Regards

Jim. (muddled no more)