Author Topic: a Cornwall/Devon geography question  (Read 6314 times)

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: a Cornwall/Devon geography question
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 19:34 BST (UK) »
Running across this again, and having relocated since I started the thread, back to my southwestern Ontario home turf, I became curious.

As a kid, I wrote a bunch about local history here. John Graves Simcoe was one of the leading characters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Graves_Simcoe
Quote
John Graves Simcoe (25 February 1752 – 26 October 1806) was a British Army general and the first Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada from 1791 until 1796 in southern Ontario and the watersheds of Georgian Bay and Lake Superior. He founded York (now Toronto) and was instrumental in introducing institutions such as courts of law, trial by jury, English common law, and freehold land tenure, and also in the abolition of slavery in Canada.

... Simcoe was the only surviving son of Cornishman John (1710–1759) and Katherine Simcoe (d. 1767). His parents had four children, but he was the only one to live past childhood; Percy drowned in 1764, while Paulet William and John William died as infants. ... The family then moved to his mother's parental home in Exeter. His paternal grandparents were William and Mary (née Hutchinson) Simcoe.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKY7-5YS
Quote
Name    John Graves Simcoe
Spouse's Name    Elizabeth Posthuma Gillam
Event Date    30 Dec 1782
Event Place    Buckerell,Devon,England

He was born in Northamptonshire. I'm wondering, given the apparent maternal familial Exeter connection, whether his "Graves" came from his mother's side, about which nothing seems to be known, and how remote his connection with Thanckes might have been.

Just idle historical curiosity. ;)

HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline G Mlx

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Re: a Cornwall/Devon geography question
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 23 May 19 23:40 BST (UK) »
Quote
Name    John Graves Simcoe
Spouse's Name    Elizabeth Posthuma Gillam
Event Date    30 Dec 1782
Event Place    Buckerell,Devon,England

He was born in Northamptonshire. I'm wondering, given the apparent maternal familial Exeter connection, whether his "Graves" came from his mother's side, about which nothing seems to be known, and how remote his connection with Thanckes might have been.

Just idle historical curiosity. ;)
[/quote]

John Graves Simcoe was the Godson of Admiral Samuel Graves 1713-1787 and he married the Admiral's ward Elizabeth Posthuma Gwilliam at Buckerell Church, which was near to the Admirals home at Hembury Fort House. The Admiral was the nephew of Rear Admiral Thomas Graves of Thanckes 1680-1755, who was the father of Admiral Lord Thomas Graves 1725-1802.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: a Cornwall/Devon geography question
« Reply #11 on: Friday 24 May 19 13:15 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much!

Seeing the Graves name, and having recently moved back to southwestern Ontario, really did just bring back to mind my projects and classes from all those years ago about the settling of this area, and the itch to know needed scratching, but some quick googling wasn't telling me.

I should have tried harder (but my procrastinating was getting out of hand, so here I am on 4 hours' sleep trying to meet today's deadline ...)

http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/explore/online/simcoe/simcoe-early-years.aspx
https://torontoist.com/2016/07/historicist-elizabeth-simcoe/

And now I know what I didn't know before, because of course in my day we didn't learn about women in history -- that Elizabeth, like other women diarists, is a voice through which we know much of what we know about life in that day.

Gotta meet that deadline, then I'll go back and browse some more. Thanks again!
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline G Mlx

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Re: a Cornwall/Devon geography question
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 16 February 21 23:41 GMT (UK) »
I have had a look again at Thanckes House and it was first advertised to let in December 1827. The Dowager Lady Graves, had died in March aged  89 and Lord William Paget, her daughter-in-law brother had been living there after her death.
In 1844, Lord Lisle was in occupation.
By 1861, the Hon George Edgcumbe was living at Thanckes with his family.
In March 1870 the 3rd Lord Graves died at Thanckes and thereafter the 4th Lord and his family were living there, during his time he pulled down the old house and in 1872 he built a new mansion in the grounds, which he advertised to let in The Morning Post on the 24th August 1876 and fourteen subsequent advertisements up to the 17th October.
The Royal Cornwall Gazette on the 28th August 1875 printed a story "Alleged Abandonment of Child in Nobleman's House", which involved one of the maids Emma Buie, who had given birth to a male child and had hid it in a box when only a few hours old.


Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: a Cornwall/Devon geography question
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 27 July 21 18:56 BST (UK) »
Well, I can only apologise for neglecting to answer your post, G Mix. Pandemic ... my partner and I have still not left the house since Feb 28 of last year, except for essential medical and veterinary reasons (and of course our double doses), so you'd think that would have left lots of time for family historying. It didn't happen.

In Feb of this year, right when this post was added to my old thread, I suddenly got very busy with work. I've always worked at a home office, so COVID actually had far less effect on us than on most others. The worst effect for us was on my mum, living 200 miles from me, 90 years old and isolated in her apartment in a senior cits' building. She had been in cancer treatment for over two years, one of the first to get a wonderful new immunotherapy and one of the lucky ones on whom it worked miracles, making her a poster child for others to have access to it -- so she had gone from being bedridden in agony and needing one of us kids there 24/7 (I did it in 10-day shifts; my sister living nearby tended to all her shopping and hospital apointments, from then through the pandemic) to doing laps around the block with her walker. Ten weeks after the date of the post I'm replying to, 8 weeks after eagerly having her first shot, she died suddenly and alone late at night, not of cancer or COVID but apparently of heart failure. I will forever hate every single person everywhere who selfishly defied pandemic rules (and now stupidly and evilly refuses vaccination) and contributed to my mother not seeing two of her four children for over a year, and to the depression she didn't survive. Rant ends.

Thank you G Mix. I know I did read your post and take it on board -- because I was recently closing a slew of old open tabs and ran across the ones where I'd hunted for Emma Buie. :)

The thing is that the missing daughter in that family of mine -- the eldest child, born in the 1840s, according to the two censuses she appears in (51 and 61) -- was named Emma. So imagine my ears perking up.

Emma Buie, age 16 (b. c1856 Clerkenwell), seems to have been a servant in a Monro household in London in 1871 (so place of birth may or may not have been correct). That seems likely to be the one, but I see no other records of her. The surname Buie seems to be Scottish. My Emma would have been nearly twice as old in 1871.

I can also add, all these years later, that some DNA work was done and that the family in question -- whose "real" surname is not the surname my mum inherited -- matches closely with the YDNA of a family that lived for generations 10 miles from where my family was in the 1850s with a totally different surname. But not closely enough to find a paper crossroad, probably, even if I had any clue who my most recent Mr. "real surname" -- who married c1820, grandfather of the children batch baptised in the 1850s, who is evident in any other records only from the fact that his widow remarried in the 1830s -- was and where he came from... although I do know that his wife (whose DNA doesn't count in the male surname line) had the same surname as the YDNA match name with my family -- !! So many webs, so tangled.

I stay on the trails, but I'm kind of stuck where I was a few years ago, except for ever-narrowing bits and pieces. Like discovering the grave of my great-grandfather's sister (one of the batch baptisms in Cornwall in the 1850s) in Canada, of all places, where her husband abandoned it when he departed back to England later that year with their kids (one of whom settled in S. Africa, whose granddaughters, whom I had already found online, had never heard of their great-grandmother buried in Canada and knew only more genealogical tall tales) and his new wife, and then left the kids behind and left for parts even more exotic. One half of a couple dissembling is enough; when both of them and their kids and their siblings just lie about everything, in different ways, this is what you get.

It was interesting to read this thread again. We are in the midst of a paroxysm of statue toppling and name-changing here in Ontario (Messrs. Ryerson and Dundas, for example, having been associated with the "Indian" residential schools where crimes against humanity were committed), but I haven't seen anything yet calling for Col. Simcoe's deposing. He was a mixed bag, of course, as aren't we all.

I think I'll go hunting for my Emma again. Or make lunch.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?