Look up 1891 - Epping - Joseph Napoleon Dodge

[keyboard86]

OK so what appears to be same family in 1851:-

Joseph Dodge b 1825 occ Greengrocer b Shoreditch
Emily 1828 b St Matthew Bethnal Green
Emily 1 month b Shoreditch
HO107/1536/310/1

Marriage Joseph Dodge to Emily Taylor Dec qtr 1848 Islington 3 221
So where is Joseph jnr from 1861 if same family?
Keyboard86

PS just re-read thread, have I missed the reference to father being a Greengrocer?

[chritopher dodge]

hi key board not really too sure about joseph napoleons father being a greengrocer , this was something that poped up on a census i looked at years ago the dates looked to be right but i am not very good at this , but remember seeing joseph napolean there as carman living with mother emily and father joseph  very keen to know to clear up the stories

[keyboard86]

hi key board not really too sure about joseph napoleons father being a greengrocer , this was something that poped up on a census i looked at years ago the dates looked to be right but i am not very good at this , but remember seeing joseph napolean there as carman living with mother emily and father joseph  very keen to know to clear up the stories

Hi the only way at present to clear up this apparent query is, if you are certain the Joseph Napoleon we have followed through to possibly 1911, is your Joseph, would be to purchase the birth certificate, then at least you can confirm occupation of father, and maiden name etc of mother?
Keyboard86

[chritopher dodge]

Key board thank you , i will purchase the birth certificate , remind me where from ?  a while ago i did purchase the marriage cert of this joseph to johanna gilbey pretty sure this is the right one , not many joseph napoleons around ! it also lines up with my grandfather edwin frederick born 1899 , thanks again for your help

[mark1965]

Hi

Looking at the 1851 & 61 census. On the 61 census Josephs age is 14, although they have misread it as 11 thereby giving year of birth as 1850. 1851 His mother is Harriet & father John. He has siblings Henry H, John J, Ercole C & Frederick although another misreading gives the family as Gedge , Joseph & Frederick start a new page with correct name translations.They are at 5 Orange St St George the Martyr, Middlesex, England. Joseph b Shoreditch. In 1861 Henry, Joseph & Frederick remain with family although John (father) is scrubbed out (must be absent) described as commercial traveller. No age for him but birth at St Anns Westminster. I found Ercole's baptism just to link the family, can,t have been many
England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Birth:   28 Feb 1844   
Ercole Charles Dodge
Christening:   24 Mar 1844   CHRIST CHURCH,?HOXTON,?LONDON,?ENGLAND Parents:   John Dodge,? Harriet. Christian names in those days tended to have a degree of laxity.

By the way I did this research for your cousin Sally who lives in Beer Devon.

Regards, Mark

[chritopher dodge]

hi Mark,

Thank you very much for all of this , yes Sally is my cousin i got started on this a few years ago and then didnt have the time to look any further and didnt really know how i gave everything i found out to sally and thankfully she has got you to help out with the family mysteries which fascinate us both , and now it looks even more interesting  ERCOLE what a name  , we have always found joseph napoleon a bit of a name considering what was going on near that time !!

Is there anymore you can find out ?

Sally and myself have been told a few bits about the family history but not much past our grandfather Edwin , his wife  vera (our grandmother) used to let on more than our grandfather and we have been told bits of the history but possibly some of it what they wanted us to know !
 

[mark1965]

Hi,

It's registrations now so you need to confirm parents of Joseph from marriage registration - I think you can order from findmypast.com - you have to buy credits from them - there are other ways - don't remember specifically.

Obviously Ercole dodge is a name to pursue if he is JNDs brother. Or get JNDs birth certificate - that will give you parents surnames. That would be a good start to confirm everything up until now. Going back further is difficult as BMDs were not registered before 1837 on any national level - that would mean visits to local family history centres - OK if you are in London - trickier if you live down here. I have probably taken it as far as possible for free - you now need another break to kick start further research. The main problem is that the family probably disappear into the seething mass of humanity of early 19th century so  difficult to trace with any confidence. I will have another look at any other sources I have. Let me know if you firm up any names.

Gilbeys is another line - there is quite a lot of interest online referring to Johanna - especially from descendants of her children from second marriage. Look at the letters you have for any clues. One of her grandchildren was told she was the daughter of Sir Walter and she was raised by Gilbey grandparents although names on census do not tally with Sir Walter's parents. But with illegitimacy it is alway sgoing to be difficult.

Regards, mark

[findem]

Hi,

I think you'll find the GRO would be less expensive than getting BMD certificates from Findmypast.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Regards.

[Ladyhawk]

ERCOLE what a name  , we have always found joseph napoleon a bit of a name considering what was going on near that time !!  Is there anymore you can find out ?

Just for info. it would appear the origin of the name Ercole is Italian meaning “splendid gift"  (Italian version of Hercules)
 
I have to say any child is a splendid gift 

Or
Ercole meaning ‘Hera’s Glory’ mainly Italian

Obviously Ercole dodge is a name to pursue if he is JNDs brother Or
get JNDs birth certificate - that will give you parents surnames.

That would be a good start to confirm everything up until now.

Not sure if you have this info. or how accurate it is no middle name given for Ercole's brother Joseph

There’s this link families with surname of Dodge, http://www.dodgefamily.org/Genealogy/EnglishDodges/worldfile/index/ind0069.html this is the info. they have listed for Ercole Charles Dodge

John Dodge b1803 died 17 Jun 1898 Kentish Town married 1832 St Anne’s Westminster
Harriet Rose died 28 Aug 1873 Thanet Ramsgate

named children of John & Harriet

Stuart ?

Henry 30 Mar 1834 St Anne Soho Westminster

John Henry 6 Sep 1835 St Pancras Old Church

John James 1 Apr 1838 St Anne Soho died 17 Jun 1898 Kentish Town
married 13 Apr 1876 St Pancras Anne Eve Ibbetson
children: Anna Marion, Harriet, Mary Ann, Richard, Edwin & Edith Caroline

Harriet Betsey 15 Dec 1839 St Martins in the Field

Thomas Henry 20 Jun 1841 Hoxton New Town

James Malcolm Henry 9 Oct 1842 Hoxton New Town

ERCOLE CHARLES 28 Feb 1844 Hoxton New Town married 1 Jun 1868 Sophia Clementine Stuart

Joseph 1847 Hoxton New Town

Fredrick 1851 “          “          “

No actual birth/baptism dates for Stuart and only date/place for Joseph & Frederick

As keyboard said the only way to confirm Joseph Napolean Dodge’s parentage etc is to order the 1846 birth certificate 

Here are the references of Joseph Napolean & Ercole Charles from FreeBMD, you can order from GRO if you wish (see the link provided by findem)

Joseph Napoleon Dodge Birth Jun qtr. 1846 District E.London vol.2 page 219

Joseph Napoleon Dodge marriage Mar qtr. 1889 district Bethnal Green Vol 1c page 246
Name on same page Johannah Catherine Gilbey

Joseph Napoleon Dodge birth Mar qtr. 1890 district Epping Vol 4a page 286

possible deaths
Joseph Dodge age 65 (1850) Mar qtr. 1915 district Shoreditch vol 1c page 128
Joseph N Dodge age 72 (1852) Mar qtr. 1924 district Romford vol 4a page 621

Encole Charles Dodge birth Mar qtr. 1844 District Shoreditch Vol 2 page 448

Ercole Charles Dodge marriage Jun qtr. 1868 district Shoreditch vol 1c page 298 name on same page Sophia Clementina Stuart

Ercole Charles H Dodge  birth Jun qtr. 1870 district Camberwell vol 1d page 656
Ercole Charles H Dodge death Jun qtr. 1870 district Camberwell vol 1d page 397

Possible birth & death entries for Ercole’s wife
Sophia Clements  Stuart Jun atr. 1851 Newington Vol 4 page 409
Sophia Dodge age 66 (1843) Dec qtr. 1912 Paddington vol 1a page 1

I can't place Ercole & Sophia Dodge together on the 1871 census after their marriage
Haven't got full transcript but wondered if this his her with a daughter named Blanche 

1871c Camberwell
Sophia Stubbs Wilthew 70 Yarmouth Norfolk
Sophia Stubbs Dodge 20 Camberwell Niece
Blanche Dodge 2 Dalston
plus 1 servant, 2 boarders

1881c Paddington - Westbourne Cottage Great Western Rd
Blanche Dodge age 12 (1869) London

there's this marriage in 1846 Camberwell
Sophia Stubbs Clements  name on same page Joseph Thomas Wilthew/Wiltham

Sophia Clements bapt 24/11/1800 St Nicholas Yarmouth born 22 Nov
Parents Edward CLEMENTS & Mary STUBBS (family search)

ADDED

Haven't got full details of the marriage of
Sophia Clementina Stuart to Ercole but her father is named as
George Stubbs Clements Stuart

and from family search George has the same parents as Sophia Stubbs Clements

George Stubbs Clements bapt 20 Oct 1798 Yarmouth Norfolk
Parents Edward Clements & Mary Stubbs (family search)