frederick & john thomas birch

[CaroleW]

I think the widower status in 1911 is probably genuine but where on earth is her death reg??

Logically -  it should be in the Wigan area as that is where they were in 1901 and 1911 and it’s where the last child was born at the end of 1904.  I have checked freebmd individually for all Ellen and all Birch deaths between June qtr 1904 and March qtr 1911 in case of any possible mistranscription but came up with zilch

[RendLill]

One area I've not known where to probe is Catholic records. I can't quite work out when/which parts of family were/became Catholic but as my grandmother Nell was brought up Catholic (plus my father, our family), I suspect Ellen Hart was Catholic too. But some of family seem to have C of E baptism, marriage records. Don't know if there are any RC records. But of course there should be a civil registration of death anyway.
Another area of confusion may also be what seems a certain cavalier attitude in the family to variants of first name: interchangeably Ellen/Nell/Nellie (for my grandmother known in my day as Nell) which might have also applied to Ellen Hart. Slim chance but I had tried some variants.
Thank you very much, by the way, for your efforts.

[Maiden Stone]

Another area of confusion may also be what seems a certain cavalier attitude in the family to variants of first name: interchangeably Ellen/Nell/Nellie (for my grandmother known in my day as Nell) which might have also applied to Ellen Hart. Slim chance but I had tried some variants.

I tried Helen Birch on Lancashire BMD which gave a few different results but none were a likely match. Some of my Lancashire Ellen ancestors were Nellie on some records and were always Nellie in everyday life.

[Maiden Stone]

One area I've not known where to probe is Catholic records. I can't quite work out when/which parts of family were/became Catholic but as my grandmother Nell was brought up Catholic (plus my father, our family), I suspect Ellen Hart was Catholic too. But some of family seem to have C of E baptism, marriage records. Don't know if there are any RC records.

Catholic Family History Society for guidance on researching R.C. ancestors. https://catholicfhs.wordpress.com
Or do internet search for Catholic Family History Society. It has several sites. There's also a North-West branch of Catholic History Society.

Lancashire Archives
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/archives-and-record-office
See:  Our Collections . Church Registers Guide.
"Lancashire Archives is responsible for the archives of the Roman Catholic dioceses of Lancaster, Liverpool and Salford although many R.C. registers are still kept in their respective parishes."
There is a printed list of parishes in alphabetical order of place. 5 Catholic churches are listed for central Bolton. Lancashire Archives holds some registers for all 5. These are followed by 10 churches in suburbs of Bolton. LA has some registers for 7 of these. Next comes Bolton-Le-Sands. This is a different place much further north in Lancashire. (The full name of Bolton is Bolton-Le-Moors.) I don't know if this list is up-to-date. You can check current holdings for an individual parish in the online catalogue LANCAT.  Bolton is in Salford Diocese.

GENUKI pages for Bolton
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Bolton
8 Catholic churches are listed, 5 existed in 19th or early 20th century. Page for each church has dates of existence and information on where registers and register transcripts are. GENUKI is a volunteer site. Information may not be up-to-date. Each church page has a map. If you know where your family lived at time of birth or which sub-district birth was registered in you could make a shortlist of churches. However a baby might have been born at a relative's home and baptised at the nearest church.
 GENUKI has a facility to search for churches within a selected radius.

Lancashire Online Parish Clerks' website also lists churches in each place and has a brief history of some. LANOPC started adding Catholic registers a few years ago.

Around a century ago the Catholic Record Society printed and published transcriptions of many historic registers. The latest I've found in the journals for any of my families were from 1830s. Some of these have been digitised and indexed. The Genealogist and other FH websites have some. Many are on The Internet Archive.

NB Catholic Church in England has recently imposed a closure order of 110 years on sacramental records. This includes baptism registers but not funeral/burial registers. I think it's 70 years for marriages. A few baptisms up to 100 years previously had been put online before the decision was made to increase the interval.

There are a few people on RootsChat who will do look-ups at Lancashire Archives as long as you are specific about the information you need and the sources which might contain it. The Lancashire Archives look-up request thread is on the Lancashire board.

You mentioned that you're not sure when your grandmother's family became Catholic. This isn't unusual. Marriages pre 1837 had to be C. of E. to be legal. Some Catholics, especially poorer ones married in C. of E. after that date because it was cheaper. A wedding in a Catholic church required presence of a registrar who had to be paid. An Anglican vicar or curate was marriage celebrant and registrar in one man. The Catholic authorities in England recognised marriages in C. of E. performed before 1909 as valid. After 1909 a Catholic was required to marry in presence of a Catholic parish priest or his representative, after banns.
It's possible that some family members were baptised in a church of one denomination as infants and a different one later, in childhood, adolesence or adulthood. Adult baptism/reception  might have been before or after marriage. Browsing a baptism register dated 1913-1917, I noticed several adults. All were married or about to be married. (People baptised after 1909 were supposed to have information about their marriages added.)

[RendLill]

Thanks people for all the info.
I think I've probably found my great grandmother Ellen Birch nee Hart. Or at least I have found an Ellen Birch BMD death Prescot, Lancashire, born 1865, died October-December 1910. 466a 8b which fits within the parameters of 1901 and 1911 censuses.

It's odd that I couldn't find that through Ancestry or some other sites, but did find it through TheGenealogist. Even though using the same search terms. Is that other people's experience?

Wondering though whether if I go to the expense of getting that death certificate whether it will confirm the right woman.

[CaroleW]

My Reply 14 refers

I thought the Ellen who died 1910 was in St Helens in 1901 which is in the Prescot RD so dismissed her as your Ellen.  She is shown as b Wales.  Your Ellen was always living in Wigan

I have now found the St Helens Ellen in 1911 shown as b St Helens so the Prescot death is not her as I first  thought and could be your Ellen

EDIT

Just checked that 1910 death against GRO online and they show her age as 35 whereas freebmd and the GRO index shows 45

[Maiden Stone]

It's odd that I couldn't find that through Ancestry or some other sites, but did find it through TheGenealogist. Even though using the same search terms. Is that other people's experience?

Yes. Different results may be influenced by what source material was used, who transcribed them, how carefully transcriptions were checked, whether a user of a site flagged an incorrect transcription, whether the correction was accepted, how quickly it was amended and algorithm variations.
 I've found differences between Lancashire BMD index and GRO index. Lancashire BMD index is compiled from original certificates, GRO isn't. Spelling of maiden surname of one of my grandmothers is incorrect in one entry in GRO index although correct on Lancashire BMD. GRO won't change it because their transcription matches GRO printed index. A baby who died is in GRO index as aged 5; he was 5 months old.

[RendLill]

My Reply 14 refers

I thought the Ellen who died 1910 was in St Helens in 1901 which is in the Prescot RD so dismissed her as your Ellen.  She is shown as b Wales.  Your Ellen was always living in Wigan

I have now found the St Helens Ellen in 1911 shown as b St Helens so the Prescot death is not her as I first  thought and could be your Ellen

EDIT

Just checked that 1910 death against GRO online and they show her age as 35 whereas freebmd and the GRO index shows 45

I'm now so confused...
Prescott death, 1910, 466a 8B - if age 45 - that likely to be great grandmother?
But could be age 35 - in which case not right person.

'My' Ellen Hart on the Census, birth place recorded as Sharples: that's Bolton - or rather north of Bolton?
And Wigan is sort of between Bolton and St Helens, with Prescott further West?

What source might clinch it?
Do you know what might be a likely cemetery if she died in Prescot? And maybe was Catholic. Can't think they would have wanted/have afforded to transport her far.
Husband John Thomas Birch and her sister Mary Hart buried in same plot in Heaton. Mary died in 1891 and was living as boarder with them in 1891. Otherwise would expect her there.

[CaroleW]

Prescot is the registration district - not necessarily the area in which the death took place

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/prescot.html

The GRO index shows age 45 and the freebmd entry has been transcribed from that index.  However - GRO online has age 35

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

Unfortunately - the death is not shown on LancashireBMD

I have accounted for the 2 likeliest St Helens entries - both are on the 1911 with their respective spouses.

There was a mental hospital in Rainhill - if Ellen was admitted (possibly after the birth of her last child) and died there - her death would be registered in the Prescot RD