Death certificate

[weste]

Did n't they used to charge an admin fee about £3 ?

[andycand]

quote author=weste link=topic=615084.msg4640936#msg4640936 date=1347601623]
Did n't they used to charge an admin fee about £3 ?

They used to but they discovered that legislation didn't allow them to do so.

Now you basically have 2 options when ordering certificates from the GRO.

1. You order quoting the GRO references and no checking information can be included.

2. You order stating you do not know the GRO reference, you enter a date of 1st Jan (and year),  you can then enter information in boxes (I think location might be necessary) They then search the year you quoted plus the year before and after. If they find a match, they send it and you pay, no match, no pay. There are specific boxes depending upon the type of certficate.

I wouldn't be surprised if this changes in the future as people may be using this method quite a lot and if considerable time is being spent on searches for no fee then I suspect the GRO will look at it.

Andy

[km1971]

You could ask the regiment's museum if they know where the 10th Battalion was stationed at the time of his death.

Another option would be to order his service record from the MOD. It costs £30 and will take 6-9 months. But as he died in service you do not have to provide a death certificate.

Ken

[IMBER]

Yes, it might be worth approaching the Museum:

http://www.gordonhighlanders.com/family/

This is rather strange. At 44 years, a Private rather than an NCO or Officer, and so early in the war when there was no shortage of soldiers as in 1944/45 there was probably a reduced possibility that he was in contact with enemy action.  The 10th Battalion seems to have been committed to Home Defence, perhaps coastal.  He might have drowned, been killed by an army lorry or died from some illness etc etc.  The Gordon's barracks in Aberdeen was hit by enemy bombing and soldiers were killed but that was later than 1940. In all those circumstances a normal death certificate would be issued. The next step is to do as km1971 suggests and find our where the Battalion was stationed at that time.

Earlier you expressed surprise that he joined the Gordon Highlanders but the extract from the Army Roll of Honour indicates that he stayed in Aberdeen. Knowing why he was there and what his occupation was might help.  Perhaps he was married to a Scot?

Imber

[IMBER]

I have looked a little more closely at this.  I have managed to find another ten deaths from the 10th battalion during WW2. Of these three are commemorated on the Brookwood Memorial.  The remainder are buried or cremated in Scotland. Where ages are available they seem to have been about the same age or older than George. One was eighteen.  It is dangerous to generalise but that just could point to this unit being composed of older or young and inexperienced men. Of the three commemorated at Brookwood I have managed to find death certificates for two of them so far.  Both died from illness in Aberdeen, both were married. I think it pretty safe to say that someone gave them burial.

The official CWGC description of the Brookwood Memorial provided earlier in this thread does not provide the whole picture about who is included on this memorial.  It's not inaccurate but it covers more than might be immediately apparent.  One of the more unexpected examples is given here:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/25376

However, they seem very much the exception. Thanks to the enthusiasm of of WW" amateur historians or en or whatever no less than two hundred of the names  named on the Brookwood Memorial have been found to have graves in the UK. When proof is provided to the CWGC they amend their records to show the burial place. The name remains on the Brookwood memorial until the panel has to be repaired or replaced or whatever. Burials are still being discovered. All this does not explain what happened to George but there must be a possibility that he died from an illness or accident and is buried in the Aberdeen area. The fact that a death certificate has not yet been found might be down to a spelling mistake or some other human error.  Not uncommon in wartime. If he had no local NOK then might be a factor. 

[heilanlassie]

Just an update on this search for a death certificate for George Harold Russell Bell.

As we suspected, the GRO couldn't produce a certificate for me, and have refunded the total amount of £9.25 back to my credit card.

Thank you to everyone for their help and advice.

[IMBER]

Having felt challenged by the above I have been digging around unsuccessfully for some months.  Then this morning I was just sitting at the computer waiting for my wife and grandson to get ready so that I could take them to work and school when I made a breakthrough. I just don't understand why I hadn't found this before but on ScotlandsPeople I located his record of death. He died outwith Aberdeen (which may explain why I'd missed him before) at Dyce on 19 February 1940. He died of a haemorrhage from a duodenal ulcer. The record shows him as a Private in 10th (HD) Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. The informant was his wife, Jane Calder.

This enabled me to search for his marriage which I discovered took place in Aberdeen in 1927. Interesting that his occupation then was recorded as Private (Gordon Highlanders). Encouraged by all this I managed to find a 1938 newspaper report that he had been imprisoned for two months for failing to support his two children. Following up on this there seem to be a number of likely children on Scotlandspeople.  The nature of his death and identification of his wife suggests that he was buried. That being the case his grave would qualify for war grave status if it could be located
whereas at present he is commemorated on the Brookwod Memorial in Surrey. There are at least 200 precedents for graves being marked by the CWGC subsequent to commemoration on the Brookwood Memorial.

[heilanlassie]

Having felt challenged by the above I have been digging around unsuccessfully for some months.  Then this morning I was just sitting at the computer waiting for my wife and grandson to get ready so that I could take them to work and school when I made a breakthrough. I just don't understand why I hadn't found this before but on ScotlandsPeople I located his record of death. He died outwith Aberdeen (which may explain why I'd missed him before) at Dyce on 19 February 1940. He died of a haemorrhage from a duodenal ulcer. The record shows him as a Private in 10th (HD) Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. The informant was his wife, Jane Calder.

This enabled me to search for his marriage which I discovered took place in Aberdeen in 1927. Interesting that his occupation then was recorded as Private (Gordon Highlanders). Encouraged by all this I managed to find a 1938 newspaper report that he had been imprisoned for two months for failing to support his two children. Following up on this there seem to be a number of likely children on Scotlandspeople.  The nature of his death and identification of his wife suggests that he was buried. That being the case his grave would qualify for war grave status if it could be located
whereas at present he is commemorated on the Brookwod Memorial in Surrey. There are at least 200 precedents for graves being marked by the CWGC subsequent to commemoration on the Brookwood Memorial.

I feel quite guilty, as you have obviously put a lot of work, and thought into this search - but I am going to have to dash your hopes, I'm afraid.

The parents of George Harold Russell Bell were Henry Bell, born about 1870 in Seaton Delavel, Northumberland and Elizabeth Jane Hardy, and not Elizabeth Biddell as mentioned on the death certificate you found - sorry     

Elizabeth Jane Hardy married Henry Bell on 02 September 1895 in Prudhoe, Northumberland, and she died on 06 March 1945 at Howtel, Northumberland.

The mystery of her children - George Harold Russell Bell, born 29 September 1896 at Ovingham, Northumberland and Mary Elizabeth Hardy Bell, born 02 October 1897, also at Ovingham, Northumberland - remains     

[andycand]

Hi

Don't rule out the Scottish death certificate purely on the mothers name, the information is supplied by the informant and, as many of us with Scottish ancestors have found, the informant can get it wrong. According to reply#1 GHR Bell who died 19th Feb 1940 was born Newcastle upon Tyne. I would look for a marriage between GHR Bell and Jane Calder, if it was in Scotland then it should name both his parents.

Andy