Author Topic: Hay Family Dead End  (Read 23813 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 26 September 12 21:51 BST (UK) »
I am wondering if the record was showing occupation as a clockmaker instead of a residence. 

Interesting - the others are all identifiable places.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 27 September 12 02:48 BST (UK) »
I know.  The place description doesnt exist.  Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people.  That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....

Offline GR2

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 27 September 12 07:49 BST (UK) »
Orlage must be a place. It is not uncommon for placenames to disappear as small crofts are incorporated into larger farms. He is definitely not a clockmaker. In 18th century Scotland, clocks and watches were fairly uncommon. They were actually taxed and in the Statistical Account compiled at the end of the century, ministers sometimes comment on there being e.g. two watches in the parish. Clockmakers tended to be found in the larger towns, not in a rural setting.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 27 September 12 08:29 BST (UK) »
I know.  The place description doesnt exist.  Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people.  That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....

kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.

GR2's explanation is the rational one.

The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."

Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset,
Quote
I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus.  I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #13 on: Monday 01 October 12 02:38 BST (UK) »
I know.  The place description doesnt exist.  Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people.  That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....

kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.

GR2's explanation is the rational one.

The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."

Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset,
Quote
I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus.  I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?

I think GR2 is right - is has to be a place that has vanished over time. 

I haven't been following this for very long and am a very raw amateur at this.  I have some family records which are sparse, but to answer your question, I have little to document that James that was baptized is the same one who married Elspet Forsyth.  I have a hint in my family names - but that doesn't mean that they are the same ones. 

How do I access the records cited?  Are they available on-line?  As I indicated, I am pretty inexperienced with many of the records of Scotland other than that of SP.  Thank you for your help directing me.

Scott

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 02:49 BST (UK) »
I have written the Fochabers Heritage Center in the hope that they can possibly suggest some possible locations - it is a long shot, but worth a try.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 08:43 BST (UK) »
How do I access the records cited?  Are they available on-line? 

They are in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh and only the catalogue references are available online. You would either need to go to Edinburgh in person, or hire a searcher to go and look on your behalf. If you are keen to access these records I would recommend the latter course, as it takes a while to become familiar with the system in the NAS. There are links on www.nas.gov.uk to lists of accredited searchers.

However if you don't have definite evidence to prove that your James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth was the one born in Bellie, you might spend a lot of time or money pursuing someone not related to you at all. Both Hay and Forsyth are common enough surnames in Moray, and it is quite possible - even likely - that your James Hay is someone totally different whose baptism record has not survived.

Please let us know what Fochabers Heritage tells you.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 15:55 BST (UK) »
How do I access the records cited?  Are they available on-line? 

They are in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh and only the catalogue references are available online. You would either need to go to Edinburgh in person, or hire a searcher to go and look on your behalf. If you are keen to access these records I would recommend the latter course, as it takes a while to become familiar with the system in the NAS. There are links on www.nas.gov.uk to lists of accredited searchers.

However if you don't have definite evidence to prove that your James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth was the one born in Bellie, you might spend a lot of time or money pursuing someone not related to you at all. Both Hay and Forsyth are common enough surnames in Moray, and it is quite possible - even likely - that your James Hay is someone totally different whose baptism record has not survived.

Please let us know what Fochabers Heritage tells you.

I will absolutely communicate with everyone what the Fochabers Heritage tells me.

I understand what you are saying - and we have a bit of circular logic.  I am not sure that the people are the same, so need to access the Archives to determine if it is - but I could spend a lot of time/money/effort tracking down someone that may not be the person I seek - I am not sure how is the best way to resolve it besides taking the risk (or calling it a dead end and leaving it there).

I will make some inquiries and tell everyone what I determine - thank you.

Offline kb0fhp

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Re: Hay Family Dead End
« Reply #17 on: Friday 12 October 12 23:17 BST (UK) »
I received an email from the Fochabers Heritage Center today.  Here is what they indicated:

Thank you for your interesting email, I'm afraid at the moment Orlage is puzzling us too, I spoke to the Local Studies officer but he drew a blank, we will keep trying to get an answer.

Balfour is actually Badfour, this was a farm at Enzie. , Badfour would be about 9 miles (by road) from Auchenhalrig (todays spelling) . This would seem right as the witnesses at the baptism wouldn't have travelled too far which is why tracing Orlag is such a puzzle as we presume it is in this vicinity but of course the 1st rule of genealogy research is never presume!. Badfour Farm is first mentioned in 1590 and belonged to the Gordon family.

Todays spelling of Nether and Upper Dalachie is Dallachy, they are both busy growing communities. During WW11 there was an airbase there RAF Dallachy, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British squadrons of Coastal Command flew Beaufighters attacking German shipping, mainly along the Norwegian and Dutch coasts, Do you use Libindx (Moray Local Heritage Births Deaths Index) in your searches?, it's a good source of information and available to everyone on the internet.

We will certainly get back to you if anything about Orlage surfaces, if we can be of any help with anything else please get in touch.


So the hunt continues......