Author Topic: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?  (Read 4069 times)

Offline Pheno

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,083
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« on: Wednesday 10 October 12 14:26 BST (UK) »
Hi I have a conundrum in that I have Charles Holland b.c.1838 living with his parents Henry and Jane (née Coventon) in Kneesworth, Cambs in the 1841 census(Class: HO107; Piece: 63; Book: 7; Enumeration District: 11; Page: 1;).

I thought that he was the Charles Holland who, according to familysearch married Mary Ann Langham at Melbourn, Cambs on 20 March 1858 and went on to have several children.

However, when searching through other trees on Ancestry some researchers show that the Charles Holland who married Mary Ann Langham was a Charles Watson Holland to which they have attached all the same children.

According to familysearch there is a baptism of a Charles Holland, the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Holland and Charles Watson, at Kneesworth/Bassingbourne on 12 Feb 1838.  As far as I can see there are no further references anywhere to a Charles Watson Holland.

On some trees both Charles Holland son of Henry and Jane and Charles Watson Holland son of Elizabeth and Charles appear, both married to Mary Ann Langham and both with the same set of children!

Henry and Jane's first child was Elizabeth, born about 1816 Guilden Morden, Cambs.  She could have been the mother of Charles Watson Holland, which would mean that there was a slight coverup on the 1841 census in stating that Charles Holland was the son of Henry and Jane, when in fact he would have been their grandson. (He is 9 years younger than their youngest child).

Elizabeth married Thomas Catley in Bassingbourn, Cambs on 3 May 1840.

I can't find either Elizabeth Catley or Charles Holland on the 1851 census to see if that would offer some confirmation.

Is my supposition about Charles Holland and Charles Watson Holland being one and the same person, illegitimate son of Elizabeth Holland and grandson to Henry and Jane feasible do you think and can anyone help in finding any proof.

Thanks, Pheno
Austin/Austen - Sussex & London
Bond - Berkshire & London
Bishop - Sussex & Kent
Holland - Essex
Nevitt - Cheshire & Staffordshire
Wray - Yorkshire

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,608
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 15:03 BST (UK) »

Henry and Jane's first child was Elizabeth, born about 1816 Guilden Morden, Cambs.  She could have been the mother of Charles Watson Holland, which would mean that there was a slight coverup on the 1841 census in stating that Charles Holland was the son of Henry and Jane, when in fact he would have been their grandson. (He is 9 years younger than their youngest child).


The 1841 census does not state relationships.  :)   What does the marriage certificate  to Mary Ann Langham say about his father.


I have answered the marriage query myself from familysearch
Charles Holland
groom's age:    21
bride's name:   Mary Anne Langham
bride's age:    20
marriage date:    20 Mar 1858
marriage place:    Melbourn,Cambridge,England
groom's father's name:   
groom's mother's name:   
bride's father's name:   Joseph Langham


So it looks as though he could be illegitimate  ;)
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,608
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 15:11 BST (UK) »
There is a possibility for Elizabeth Catley in 1841
H0107/ 63 F 10 P 14   living Drury Lane, Melbourn
Thomas 22
Elizabeth 24
Joseph 10 months
all bn Cambridgeshire
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pheno

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,083
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 16:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks Rosie.

It just needs that nudge from someone else looking at the same info.

I've been doing this long enough to know that relationships aren't stated in 1841 but I suppose in my recording of the detail some time ago I'd overlooked that and my software now displays Charles as a child of Henry and Jane.

So thats good in that it means my supposition is still alive and even more so as you've pointed out that no fathers name is given for him on the marriage detail - again a fact that I've stared at but hadn't grasped the significance of.

I have that 1841 census for Elizabeth Catley but can't find her or Charles in 1851.

At least the absence of info confirms my supposition - I'd just like some actual verification.

Thanks, Pheno
Austin/Austen - Sussex & London
Bond - Berkshire & London
Bishop - Sussex & Kent
Holland - Essex
Nevitt - Cheshire & Staffordshire
Wray - Yorkshire

Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,608
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 17:01 BST (UK) »
I can't see them in 1851 either.  :(   There are a few young Catley's in the workhouse with a parent though .  I did wonder if it had been transcribed as Oatley. :-\

Rosie
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline CindyG

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 23 September 13 17:03 BST (UK) »
I was wondering if you had found any further information on Charles Watson Holland.  I recently came upon what I believe to be his baptismal record.  He is listed as Charles Watson.  His father, Charles Watson and his mother Elizabeth Holland.  Baptized in Bassingbourn 12 Feb 1838.  You can find the record in the batch number : C109771-1 on familysearch.org. 

I have also been unsuccessful in finding them in the 1851 Census, but am curious as to whether it is them in the workhouse in Bassingbourn.  The mother's name is Mary Catley (b. 1816 Guilden Morden), but she has a son Charles with the last name listed as "her son" (b. 1837 Kneesworth) ,  Joseph Catley (b. 1838 Kneesworth) and James (b. 1843 Royston Union House).  Mary is listed as married, but no husband in the workhouse with her.  I have not been able to locate records for the workhouse for those years to fully explore the option that this is them.

As I had been looking for Charles' father over the years, several researchers had explained to me that his middle name was most likely his fathers last name. 

Anything you have to add would be greatly appreciated.

Offline bedfordshire boy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,240
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 23 September 13 21:47 BST (UK) »
The GRO index shows him as Charles Watson HOLLAND. You need the birth cert to see exactly what it shows.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline CindyG

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles Holland b.c.1838 - One person or Two?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 24 September 13 13:24 BST (UK) »
I do have Charles' birth certificate, which is Charles Watson Holland, his father is listed as "Not Specified".