BBC TV "WDYTYA?" Series 10 Episode 8 Celia Imrie

[nospringchicken]

Maybe the John Barnes programme won't be so straightforward as we may think it's going to be? After all with real family tree research, all sorts of unexpected things can turn up:

' [Bob] Marley’s mother Cedella Malcolm (later Cedella Booker)began her romance with Captain Marley, a colonial supervisor, when he was fifty years old and she was merely seventeen. Norval Marley’s family was made up of white Jamaicans from the parish of Clarendon. He was relocated for work purposes to St. Ann where Cedella had grown up and resided. In a 2003 interview, Michael George Marley revealed “I was told by my mother,grandmother and uncle, that the Marleys were Syrian Jews that migrated from the Middle East to England and then  Jamaica. I did research on the surname that showed this to be true.”

And even 'documented' trees can turn out to be false - though perhaps I'm still mulling on my disappointment that Celia Imrie, despite the resemblance, didn't turn out to be related to Queen Mary and really descended from one of the numerous illegitimates from the many German princelings or dukedoms before unification and foisted on a British family complete with a Victorian folly of a family tree! Although, having said that, they didn't trace her father's Glasgow side lol

[Skoosh]

 This wee pedigree thing brings to mind Oscar Wilde's view of Burke's Peerage, that it was the greatest work of fiction yet printed in the English language.

Skoosh.

[Maggie1895]

Plus - I started a book last night which is set in the time of James II and I couldn't remember the history of that time and how and why William came to the throne... I was going to google it but this programme saved me the trouble. So thanks WDYTYA
Milly 

I was ready to throw a cushion at the screen at that point, as yet another of my hobby-horses came up.   Unless I'm missing something, they said William of Orange had been invited to take the crown, with his wife Mary, James's daughter, and implied it was purely because he was acceptable politically and was married to Mary. 

They never mentioned that William was another of Charles I's grandchildren, as his mother had been Mary, Princess Royal, sister of Charles II and of the dispossessed James.     It was Mary who married into the House of Orange and so become William's mother.  Once the decision had been taken to disallow James VII and II, wasn't William the nearest male heir to the Stewarts as the son of James's elder sister?  

Actually I quite liked the Celia Imrie episode as a change.  I agree with a lot of your comments about not showing how the research was done, but then it's only a few weeks since we had the Annie Lennox episode showing step by step research, albeit with a few leaps of faith.   As long as they keep a mix up, I wouldn't like to see the episodes all the same, and this series has had variety.      Just as long as as they don't do any more like the Patrick Stewart one.   

[Mike in Cumbria]

Yes, Mary was the one with the claim to the throne. William refused to act as prince consort and they only agreed to take the throne if they could rule as joint monarchs.

The Michael Portillo programme on radio 4 was interesting. The thesis of the programme was that, as Brits, we see the "Glorious Revolution" from a purely British (or more accurately, English) viewpoint. Seen from a European perspective, it looks quite different.

Summarising wildly:

"Traditional version of history".  Parliament and the country became worried that James's catholicism  was going to drag the country back into the dark days of Queen Mary. A deputation was sent to Holland, inviting Mary and  William to take over the throne. William brought a force over, the country rose to support him and James fled. An almost bloodless revolution had occurred and Protestantism was restored to the country.

"Alternative view".  The two main European powers at the time were Holland and France, both of whom were squaring up for war with each other and casting about for allies. England was on friendly terms with France, and an alliance was a distinct possibility. William needed to neutralise this possible new enemy. Working with a group of disgruntled Protestants in parliament, he engineered the invitation. Once he received this , he landed with an enormous force, catching James off guard at the wrong side of the country. Realising the inevitability of a military defeat, James fled the country, leaving the country in Dutch hands. London was under Dutch military control for a matter of weeks, whilst William and Parliament rewrote the constitution (amongst other things, making it illegal for a Catholic ever to become monarch).   Far from being "bloodless", this shift in the balance of power in Europe led to decades of war on the continent as well as prolonged war and continued grievances to this day in Ireland.

It was a fascinating programme and a good lesson in what happens when you see the same events from a slightly different point of view.

[Maggie1895]

Thanks Mike, that was really interesting.    Wonder if it's still available to download?

[Skoosh]

 The Glorious Revolution was certainly not bloodless in Scotland, the early Jacobite victory by Dundee at Killiecrankie was followed by defeats by Scottish Government forces at Dunkeld & Cromdale. The rebellions on behalf of the exiled Stuarts continued nearly every ten years until 1745.
 Ireland was positively awash in the red stuff following William's accession, the effects of which are still with us.
 Britain never existed until the Union of 1707 and the Scottish Parliament which regarded James VII as having abdicated, was not necessarily prepared to accept the Hanovarian succession upon a childless Anne's death. The Union was largely a strategem to prevent a French army appearing at England's back door.

Skoosh.

[Mike in Cumbria]

Thanks Mike, that was really interesting.    Wonder if it's still available to download?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pfr4y/Things_We_Forgot_to_Remember_Series_5_The_Glorious_Revolution/

[anabanana]

thought this episode was fascinating.  going to really miss WDYTYA when this series finishes