Ahh, BISCOE (a mystery)

[nong43]

Hello

I'm wondering if anybody might know something I don't, or might at least be able to add a different perspective or notice something I haven't.

I'm trying to work out how my ancestor Mary BISCOE (married Joseph CULPEPER on 17.08.1673. in Hughenden, followed by my ancestor John STALLION (a widower) on 07.10.1686. in High Wycombe) fits in with the other Biscoes in south Bucks.

I have printouts of all the (published) Biscoe baptisms and marriages in from 1538 (not that any of the parish records seemed to start then) to 1800, from Bucks FHS. I have Robert Biscoe's (1572-1630) will, as well as that of his mother Joan (née Randall), who died in 1622. I even have a PDF copy of The Pedigree of the Family of Biscoe by John Challenor Covington Smith, published in 1887...and I'm still none the wiser.

The basic problem is that I can't seem to ascertain which is the right Mary. I know it's not the one baptised in Little Missenden in 1640, daughter of John and Anne, as she died less than a year later. I know it's not the one baptised in Little Missenden in 1644, the daughter of Richard and Mary, as she went on to marry a John Gurney and live in Hillingdon. There are a couple of others, but the dates are too early or late.

The most likely candidate is, I think, the Mary baptised in the parish of Hughenden (not necessarily the village - the parish stretched as far as modern Hazlemere) on 08.10.1649., the daughter of Robert Biscoe (no wife's name mentioned). Her brothers all have biblical names - Israell, Nathaniell and Moses - which might indicate that this Robert was a Puritan, but it doesn't help me much, because then I'm stuck with how to fit this Robert into the lineages I know. He might be the Robert who was baptised in High Wycombe on 13.11.1614., son of Robert (who went on to be mayor twice and whose will I have) but this younger Robert shows up on the pedigree as having only one child, John, baptised in High Wycombe on 10.10.1640.. Since there are no baptisms to Biscoes in High Wycombe after 1642, and none in Hughenden before 1646, perhaps this Robert is the correct one, but I think the evidence is, at the moment, circumstantial.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing. As I said, if anybody has any advice or knows something I don't/has access to sources I don't, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Martin

UPDATE - 23.11.12.: I've just noticed that the daughters of the Hughenden Robert Biscoe are called Mary and Susan, and the wife and mother of the Robert baptised in High Wycombe in 1614 are called Mary and Susan(nah) respectively, so perhaps that's significant. I've ordered the wills of Susan(nah) Biscoe (née Lane) in the hope that it mentions her grandchildren, and Moses's in the hope it mentions his sister, so hopefully that'll clear up some things. 

[bucksboy]

Just a few Biscoe/Bisco burials from Hughenden.  Not sure of you have these.

10 Apr 1658 - Robert, son of Robert.
26 Dec 1661 - Samuel, son of Robert.
4 Feb 1679 - Hanna, daughter of Robert.
5 Oct 1680 - Jonas, filius of Roberti.  Certificate 7 Sep.
Feb 1683 - A female child of Rob Biscoe.  Certificate 23 Feb

Dec 1684 - Robert, a Farmer.  Certificate 16 Dec.

20 Jun 1704 - Nathaniel, of Little Missenden.  Buried in wool.
19 Nov 1715 - Moses, buried in wool.

3 Sep 1680 - Susanna, filia of Roberti & Mariae defunct.  Certificate 7 Sep.

I wonder if you have a Robert Bisco/Biscoe marrying a Maria.

(Did you notice a Mary Biscoe(widow of Hitchenden), marrying Edwrd Gomm(batchelor of Hitchinden).  29 Nov 1716 @ Hughenden).

As you've got baptisms and marriages from Bucks, I doubt I can help much more.


Steve.


From BucksFHS - Hughenden Pr's CD.


PS.  I share about 10 of your names of interest from Bucks.

[bucksboy]

There a few Wills on the Bucks Archives database that may be of interest.

Steve.

[nong43]

Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

I don't actually have any burial printouts, so this is very useful information.

I can't find mention of Robert, son of Robert or Samuel, son of Robert, on my baptisms or the pedigree, but I'd be surprised if they didn't fit in in some way, since I know of and can see several Samuels and Roberts on the pedigree (different people, it would appear, but families did tend to use the same names over and over again).

Hanna, I don't know about.

Jonas, filius Roberti, could be the one baptised in HW in 1640. Looking at FreeREG, I can also see a marriage between a Johannes Biscoe and a Maria MATHEWS in Hughenden on 28.02.1670, which might be him as well.

Nathaniel and Moses, I'd presume, were the same two baptised in Hughenden in the 1640s, sons of Robert and brothers of Mary and Susan (and more than likely the above-mentioned John).

Susanna, filia Roberti et Mariæ defunct, now this might be significant; her parents were both dead, which might indicate that they weren't young, which would fit with Robert being the HW Robert of 1614. Also, the John baptised in HW in 1640 had parents called Robert and Mary, and we know that the Susan who was baptised in Hughenden in 1659 had a father called Robert. Funny thing is, I can't find a marriage for Robert and Mary. Perhaps they were nonconformists (Robert's brother John was - he wrote books about it), although I can't find a marriage on the online registers.

If Susan's father was the one baptised in 1614, then both her parents would not have been that young when she was born, which may have led to health problems on her part which contributed to her early death at 31. (That is, if it's her; this is all speculation).

I noticed the 1716 marriage, but discounted it as I'm not aware of Mary reverting to her maiden name of Biscoe (plus I don't know when John Stallion died).

I'll have to check out the Bucks Archives database. Where is it located?

Martin 

P.S. 10 names?! Which ones? I might know things you don't (and vice versa)

[bucksboy]

Firstly, Bucks Archives link.  http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/bcc/archives/online_resources.page?   Click Wills, in....'Buy Online' box.   Click....'Go to Service'........and type in surname of  Bisco, in the search box only.........click search.   There should be 5 wills available to purchase.

I think 10 names was optimistic.

James Ridgley, 1789. Hughenden.  Wife - Jane Cartwright.
Jacob Ayres, 1770, Oving.  Wife - Elizabeth Windleburrow.
Wheeler's, of Chearsley, Bledlow and Kingsey.
Biggs, of Bradenham.
George Dean, 1754. Hughenden.
Austin, of Dinton.
Saunders of Chalfont St. Peter.
Ann Franklin, to Nathaniel Channer, of Chesham.
Turner, of Waddesden.
Bowler, of Princes Risborough.
Blackwell, of Princes Risborough.
Bailey, of Aylesbury.
Free, of Hughenden.
Stone, of Princes Risborough.
And Ann East, who married James Turner in P.Risborough in 1700.

All of these names are linked to my tree, in some shape or form.  But few are direct ancestors.

Dammit, I was going to PM these.

Oh well, I'll remove them once you've had a scan.


Steve.

[supermoussi]

UPDATE - 23.11.12.: I've just noticed that the daughters of the Hughenden Robert Biscoe are called Mary and Susan, and the wife and mother of the Robert baptised in High Wycombe in 1614 are called Mary and Susan(nah) respectively, so perhaps that's significant. I've ordered the wills of Susan(nah) Biscoe (née Lane) in the hope that it mentions her grandchildren, and Moses's in the hope it mentions his sister, so hopefully that'll clear up some things. 

Hi Martin, My interest is the LANE family but I did look at the will of Robert BISCOE, Gent of Chipping Wycombe, d.1630 in passing. It mentions children John, Thomas, Robert & Jane. Jane was married to William WIDMER, Gent at the time.

Are you looking at all the PCC BISCOE wills as well? There are some in Bucks but you definitely need to look over the border in Middlesex and London imo.

N.B. Everybody was pretty religious in the 1600s so having religious names doesn't signify anything other than they were christians.

[nong43]

Hi Supermoussi

If it turns out I am descended from Robert and Susan Biscoe, I'd be interested in hearing about the Lanes as well. I know that Susan's father was called Thomas and that he was from North Dean in the parish of Hughenden, and that he died in 1615. Is it known where the Lanes came from? Is it possible that they have some link with the Lanes in Northamptonshire?

I'm not familiar with the abbreviation PCC (rather unfortunate, since I've been researching my ancestry for over 12 years). What does it mean?

Re the names, I only mentioned them as they stuck out a bit amidst all the Johns and Roberts. (Although it was the time of the Civil War, so the Puritans would have been in the ascendancy).

Steve - I'd be interested in how your names fit in with what I have, if, that is, they do. My tree on Ancestry is called "MjH's Family Tree", if you want to check it against what you have.

Martin

[supermoussi]

Hi Martin, 

re. the LANEs, there were 2 generations of LANEs living in Hughenden before Thomas of North Dean. They started with a Thomas LANE who died in 1535. Several of his descendants were listed in Visitations in which they claimed the right to bear the Arms of the LANE family of Orlingbury, Northants (and possibly Thingdon aka Finedon before). I suspect that the heralds would have verified this quite easily so there is little reason to doubt this imo.

HOWEVER, please don't believe some of the info lying around on the internet about the family. Unfortunately some Burke seems to have done a rush job on researching this family and made gratuitous errors which, of course have spread like wildfire (including to the Hughenden Church Guide). 

There are several links between the Hughenden LANEs and Swanbourne in N.Bucks where another LANE family lived of similar status, starting with a Robert LANE d. 1547 and Ralph LANE d.1548.  Bearing in mind Swanbourne is between Hughenden and Northants, I would hazard a guess and say that Thomas LANE of Hughenden originally came from Swanbourne, and was a brother or 1st cousin of Robert & Ralph, but that is pure speculation. Any link with Orlingbury is probably further back in time, say, 1450 or before..

Anyway, unless you prove you are descended from Susan BISCOE nee LANE that is of no real interest to you.

PCC wills were wills registered at a "national" level rather than at county level and typically were made by relatively prosperous people who had assets spanning different counties. The National Archives provide more info and a search page here:-

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/wills.htm

Note that BISCOE could be spelled a variety of ways (BISCO, BYSCOE, etc) so it is worth doing wildcard searches on both the PCC and Bucks wills indices, e.g., BISC*. You can download them from the National Archives website for £3.36 each or you can view them for free if you visit the National Archives itself at Kew. Some other libraries/records offices may also give access but am not sure which ones.

Also look at the Access 2 Archives site and do various searches like BISC* in Buckinghamshire between 1500 and 1700 and you will find things like:-

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=008-sefton&cid=8-2&kw=bisc*#8-2

Hope this helps.

[nong43]

Hi Supermoussi,

I didn't realise the wills on the National Archives were referred to as PCC wills. I have the ones for Robert Biscoe (d. 1630) and his mother Joan née Randall (d. 1622) already, which is how I got Robert's children's names.

While the names and the dates make it look like the Robert who had four children in Hughenden could well be the same as the one baptised in 1614 in HW, the evidence is still largely circumstantial, which is why I've ordered Susan Biscoe née Lane's 1648 will. I'm hoping it mentions children of Robert and perhaps that he's living in Hughenden, but we'll see. (I know it wouldn't mention Mary anyway, as she wasn't born till 1649). That would at least be proof that the Biscoe children baptised in Hughenden in the 1640s were the grandchildren of Robert Biscoe Sr and Susan. If it turns out I am descended from her, would you be willing to share some of your findings with me?

When it comes to online pedigrees, I take them with a hefty pinch of salt; a lot of people seem to want to find a descent from a titled person, so often, it would appear, make assumptions based on wishful thinking or sloppy research. I'll be honest, I'd like to find a descent from a titled person for the new geographical and social vistas it opens up, which is why, if anything, I apply even more scrutiny than normal to lines that I think might lead somewhere. That said, I got into the genealogy game to find the truth, whatever that turns out to be. It's been fun so far.

I like the humourous and subtle "Burke" reference. Very funny! 

Martin

P.S. What was the nature of that reference in the second link, the one on the A2A site?

UPDATE: Just found a scan of a 1909 book containing the heralds' visitations of 1634 for Bucks. I've found the Lanes, but as you said, it merely says "Descended from the Lanes of Northamptonshire", so not much help. Very interesting, though.