Author Topic: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria  (Read 8100 times)

Offline tonitoni

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #9 on: Monday 31 December 18 00:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi, another American that is curious of family history. I have written letter from ancestor who stated Queen Victoria took Aunt Docka/Docka (Batten/Bailey?) as a child and trained her for her maid (1st waiting maid). My ancestor wrote that there was some distant relationship between them and the Queen.
The Queen gave Aunt Doka a brooch with 10 diamonds surrounding a braid of the Queen's hair.  My Great Aunt remembers her Grandma wearing it, and jewelers caution about trusting other jewelers; Great Aunt discusses it was passed down to the wrong person (went to brother's daughter), breaking the 'eldest daughter' rule that was set;that person broke up the broche, made a ring which was lost in the depression, and the hair was never put in ring but lost too.

Anyway, my question is about terminology. 1st waiting maid,  and lineage are confusing. Cousins would not always have the same last names if the female married a male of different last names, right? Also, there are 1-8 cousins, and also removed; I am asking because one response seemed rock solid that there would have to be a common last name of the ones they listed in the response.

 I cannot find a first name of a relative named Doka/Docka (Batten or Bailey was last name) and wonder if that has some other meaning? Also, I wonder about taken a child to train and that meaning.
I know my great Aunt was a rock solid rationalist and prolific writer, so be reading her stating she saw her Grandma wearing it-this seems reliable. Any thoughts or suggestions of how to track this?
I appreciate any help or insight any of you have.

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Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #10 on: Monday 31 December 18 01:59 GMT (UK) »
... as a child and trained her for her maid (1st waiting maid).

Anyway, my question is about terminology. 1st waiting maid,  and lineage are confusing.


Hello,
Welcome to Rootschat

Added: If during the Census period (every 10 years) 1841 to 1911 Occupations and Addresses may suggest links as employees (see next post).

Bear in mind some Nobility never stated their position as their Occupation in the Census.

Added: GRO or Registrar Certificates England & Wales from 1837 (if service declared at the event) might hold a clue. Birth Certificate should confirm Mother / both parentage. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
For Scotland see Scotlands People.

Added: A Will may also confirm family relatives, depending on the level of detail.


Royal employees also received gifts too.

A 'Lady in Waiting ' and the 'waiting maid' can be different, as there are usually other Members and/or Nobility in the Household, who are also being attended.

Your questions can only be answered or confirmed if true, by researching your personal family relatives in B, M & D Certificates and other official records.

 -----------

Royal Archives
https://www.royal.uk/archives


For Royal servants and employees, Ledger records of the Lord Chamberlain or Lord Steward’s offices (depending upon the location and type of employment). Documents record their pay, lodging, gifts, and their pensions etc.

Added: See also following post by horselydown86

 -----------

LORD CHAMBERLAIN
Records of the Lord Chamberlain and other officers of the Royal Household
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C197

Other records in this Series Reference


DEPARTMENT OF THE LORD STEWARD or Household Below Stairs.
Lord Steward's Department: Comptroller of the Household: Accounts
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10376

Records of the Lord Steward, the Board of Green Cloth and other officers of the Royal Household
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C202

Other records in this Series Reference

Mark
"George HOOD of Selby" Before 1812?

Born about 1785 (Yorkshire per 1841 Census)

Married Sarah RUSSELL at Selby 1815 newspaper - "both of that place".

Buried in the Quaker Burial Ground at Selby as "Not in Membership" in 1845, aged 60 years.

George HOOD of Selby was refused Membership of the Quakers in 1836.

Elected Overseer of the Poor of Selby in 1838.

Had both known (Selby) and unknown (some not stated 1846) property interests.

Possible (but unknown) links to COOK and/or PEARSON names.

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Offline gazania

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #11 on: Monday 31 December 18 03:00 GMT (UK) »
There was no story, at least handed down to me, that we had relatives in the household of Queen Victoria. But I happened to find two sisters, distant relatives of mine, who worked as coffee room maids at Buckingham Palace and another time at Osborne House. I found them on the census records first and then followed using the Staff Records as listed above. One married another staff member.

Best wishes with your search.
ALDERMAN, Bucks
BELK, Yorkshire, London
CARLING, Bedfordshire
CUNDITH,CUNDILL, Yorkshire, PALIN. Lincolnshire
FOX, Essex; Camberwell Surrey
LANE, Cork IE;Askeaton LIM, Liverpool, Clifton, Bristol
VOLLER, Surrey
WALL Clonlara Co Clare Ireland
WAREHAM, Esher, Surrey; London
WINCH, Surrey

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #12 on: Monday 31 December 18 03:01 GMT (UK) »
FindMyPast has a collection called Royal Household Staff 1526-1924.

The collection information sheet can be viewed without registration.  You can also do basic name searches without registration.

Use Search >>>A-Z of Record Sets (with household as the keyword) to access the search page, then Discover more about....

Here is the salient information:

The records fall into three main sections: Royal Household establishment lists, Royal Household index sheets and Royal Household payment and employment lists. Between them they contain extensive, but not complete, lists of Royal Household employees back to the 16th century.

Royal Household establishment lists
Royal Household Establishment Lists 1854-1924 (Royal Archives reference PERSO/EB)
Royal Household Establishment Books 1526-1920 (Royal Archives reference EB/EB)
Establishment Lists for Lord Chamberlain's Department 1837-1924 (Royal Archives reference LC/LCO/EB)
Establishment Lists for Master of the Household's Department 1835-1924 (Royal Archives reference MRH/MRH/EB)
Establishment Lists for the Royal Mews 1717-1924 (Royal Archives reference MEWS/EB)
Royal Household index sheets *Royal Household Index 1660-1901 (Royal Archives reference GB)
These index sheets relate to Royal employees and tradespersons. They have been compiled from records held at the Royal Archives and The National Archives, plus various printed sources.

Royal Household payment and employment lists
Lists of Pensions and Allowances 1814-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including PPTO/PP/HH, PPTO/PP/PEN and PPTO/TO/CL)
Lists of Salaries and Wages 1817-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including MEWS/SB, PPTO/PP/BAND and VIC/ADDA21)
Royal Household Account Books 1730-1845 (multiple Royal Archives references, including GEO/ADD17, GEO/MAIN and VIC/ADDO)
Royal Household Staff Details 1715-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including MRH/MRH/HH, MRH/SUPTWC and VIC/ADD/L)
Royal Mews Warrant Books 1760-1867 (Royal Archives reference MEWS/WB)

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #13 on: Monday 31 December 18 14:55 GMT (UK) »
There was one of her attendants who Victoria dismissed as she thought she was pregnant. Terrible scandal as it turned out to be cancer. A relative of the Marquis of Bute who was outraged at the insult & refused to entertain Victoria at Mount Stuart. He could have bought & sold her anyhow!  ;D

Skoosh.

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 10:43 GMT (UK) »
Hello Skoosh

A Kenneth (not family related and deceased) use to visit our family and Dad. When Ken died, it was discovered at his funeral he was an Athol (but spelt only one 'l' apparently).

He dropped the use of "Athol" as a middle name. His 'Old Boy' Obituary after his full name it says (A, 1931- 1936) he was OSE during WW 2, a Pilot in aerial photography.

Although very polite and humble, Ken had an air of authority about him when he spoke and my Father commented on this after his death.

I'll have to look at Scotlands People.

 ----------

When I was a Joint Industry Board ... Apprentice Plumber and Plumber, we use to work at this very grand 3 storey town house and the Hon. Lady was bedridden and the 1st maid wouldn't let us go, without one of us going to her bedside to briefly explain the work we had done. The Master Plumber or Tradesman, always tried to delegate me.

We were told by our boss to address her as Lady --------- I was so nervous being a young Apprentice and the maid checked and took me up to her bedside, she was in her 80s. Anyway I got a bit tongue tied with the detail and suddenly her face went pinkish and she said BOY! TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!

When her maid took me downstairs she said keep it simple the name of the job and reassure the Lady all finished, unless a second visit was required.

She had 3 main staff, plus a cleaner who did her washing and this younger chap was always there, but he wasn't her Son and described himself as a voluntary friend, but had been her Driver.

 ----------

There were many lovely houses we worked at, in the town, villages and in the countryside. Another, the man of the house and his gardener, cleared out their garden shed and put benches in, for us to have our break & dinner. His Wife use to bring out proper builders tea (a good hot brew) and the most generous slices of her fantastic home made cake. They were really nice people, despite their status, but to address them with first names only.

Mark
"George HOOD of Selby" Before 1812?

Born about 1785 (Yorkshire per 1841 Census)

Married Sarah RUSSELL at Selby 1815 newspaper - "both of that place".

Buried in the Quaker Burial Ground at Selby as "Not in Membership" in 1845, aged 60 years.

George HOOD of Selby was refused Membership of the Quakers in 1836.

Elected Overseer of the Poor of Selby in 1838.

Had both known (Selby) and unknown (some not stated 1846) property interests.

Possible (but unknown) links to COOK and/or PEARSON names.

Offline dobfarm

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 11:58 GMT (UK) »
Hello Skoosh

A Kenneth (not family related and deceased) use to visit our family and Dad. When Ken died, it was discovered at his funeral he was an Athol (but spelt only one 'l' apparently).

He dropped the use of "Athol" as a middle name. His 'Old Boy' Obituary after his full name it says (A, 1931- 1936) he was OSE during WW 2, a Pilot in aerial photography.

Although very polite and humble, Ken had an air of authority about him when he spoke and my Father commented on this after his death.

I'll have to look at Scotlands People.

 ----------

When I was a Joint Industry Board ... Apprentice Plumber and Plumber, we use to work at this very grand 3 storey town house and the Hon. Lady was bedridden and the 1st maid wouldn't let us go, without one of us going to her bedside to briefly explain the work we had done. The Master Plumber or Tradesman, always tried to delegate me.

We were told by our boss to address her as Lady --------- I was so nervous being a young Apprentice and the maid checked and took me up to her bedside, she was in her 80s. Anyway I got a bit tongue tied with the detail and suddenly her face went pinkish and she said BOY! TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!

When her maid took me downstairs she said keep it simple the name of the job and reassure the Lady all finished, unless a second visit was required.

She had 3 main staff, plus a cleaner who did her washing and this younger chap was always there, but he wasn't her Son and described himself as a voluntary friend.

 ----------

There were many lovely houses we worked at, in the town, villages and in the countryside. Another, the man of the house and his gardener, cleared out their garden shed and put benches in, for us to have our break & dinner. His Wife use to bring out proper builders tea (a good hot brew) and the most generous slices of her fantastic home made cake. They were really nice people, despite their status, but to address them with first names only.

Mark

A bit off topic but worth a mention in brief.

We had free euro funded outer wall insulation on our private house fitted, plumbers extended outer wall pipes first, with new fall pipes including toilet down pipe a with the bath drain pipe jointed into that toilet down pipe. They too were interested in water levels! mainly in their cup of tea brews but also in keeping a water level in my bath tub as they had entered drain pipe to high in the fall pipe. LOL!!  ;D

Happy New Year All.  :D
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 13:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi All

dobfarm, they now say a good cup of strong tea, has anti-oxidants and healthful properties.

Our Boss would not have been happy with us, if some of the water wouldn't empty and neither would we!

We were also taught having the correct fall is also crucial in horizontal underground drainage, if it runs too fast or two slow.

We were taught how to wipe lead joints, boss lead, weld lead, leadwork, solder, braze, bend and set pipe, copper, thread steel pipe, the whole lot, all the Maths (mainly used by designers). Taught every conceivable thing, including Coal, Gas and Oil Installations, Building Regulations, stopping the spread of fires through floors in high rise, dry and wet Fire risers, electrical flow sensing and control valves, tank fresh water storage, filters, all this was part of our training! Swimming Pools. Drinking & waste water treatment basics. Although a lot is forgotten, it can be looked up again.

Now, I see a Plumbing system and it either looks cheap plastic piping and very angular, no nice swept bends and very very over complicated.

My Brother-in-Law has a heating & hot water system in a small modern two bed house and it has 3 electric circulating assistors (3 pumps) and the 'Engineers' haven't a clue how to fix it to start with.

When I see so called Tradesman (never been Apprenticed) cutting corners, I put my head in my hands. It makes me so  >:( angry, or laugh at the stupidity!

I should like to see a push for training more skilled Building Tradesman and Tradeswomen in the UK.

I absolutely dispair at some of the Workmanship I saw and what I see now, if you can call it workmanship!

Don't need Spa Water, just a good old cup or mug of tea!

Thank you to all who have contributed to my questions.

Best wishes, Mark
"George HOOD of Selby" Before 1812?

Born about 1785 (Yorkshire per 1841 Census)

Married Sarah RUSSELL at Selby 1815 newspaper - "both of that place".

Buried in the Quaker Burial Ground at Selby as "Not in Membership" in 1845, aged 60 years.

George HOOD of Selby was refused Membership of the Quakers in 1836.

Elected Overseer of the Poor of Selby in 1838.

Had both known (Selby) and unknown (some not stated 1846) property interests.

Possible (but unknown) links to COOK and/or PEARSON names.

Offline josey

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Re: Ladies in Waiting to Queen Victoria
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 14:08 GMT (UK) »
Mary nee ??? b. in Ire 1820-1822. 
m. Martin Moran b. 1822 IRE   marriage date unknown
1st known children b. 1849-1852  in Lancashire. 
They move to Coventry and have 4 more children and then immi. to US in 1863. 
In 1861 UK Census, Mary is "Washer Woman" and Martin is Hod Laborer.
In case Chattykathy is still around & looking for Mary's maiden name it looks like HUNT:
1861 RG 9; Piece: 2207; Folio: 14; Page: 4
Martin Moran   38 b Ireland mason's labourer
Mary Moran   38 b do washerwoman
Matthew Moran   12 b Liverpool
Peter Moran   9 b do
Ann Moran   6 b Coventry
Mary Moran   5 b do
Martin Moran   3 b do
Daniel Moran   5/12 b do
It is the 1870 US census where Martin is described as Hod Carrier.

From GRO index:
MORAN, MATTHEW       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1849  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 20  Page 357
MORAN, PETER       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1852  J Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 12
MORAN, ANN       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1854  J Quarter in COVENTRY  Volume 06D  Page 421
MORAN, MARY       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1855  D Quarter in COVENTRY  Volume 06D  Page 355
MORAN, MARTIN       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1858  S Quarter in COVENTRY  Volume 06D  Page 370
MORAN, DANIEL       HUNT     
GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in COVENTRY  Volume 06D  Page 398
Seeking: baptism Philip Murray 1813 nr Chatham Kent, death Ralph James Dunn b 1808 1861 - 1868 in Newington 1861
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Nova Scotia [Halifax, Pictou]: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON