"Me Dad's" first wife.

[garstonite]

Hiya Tony ....my surname is Oakes - so that is why I am curious about this thread...
Can I ask - do you have , or have you seen either
your dads Birth Certificate
or your dads Death Certificate - to establish your dads given birth surname ....as one member has stated - your dad may have been born a Phillips , but brought up as an Oakes - or vice versa .
for the record - the 1901 birth in West Ham is Arthur John Henskey Oakes...
allan

[garstonite]

If your dad was around 36 when he married in 1931 - he should be around 5 / 6 on 1901 census.
do you have him and his family in 1901 census ?...if so ,could you post it please ,,,it may help with any research
allan

[heywood]

I am getting a bit confused -sorry 

Marriage cert 1931Blackpool

Andrew Charles Phillips 36 yrs  - born abt 1895 - father Andrew Phillips - Seaman
Lily Manchester 38 yrs - abt 1893 father William Manchester - deceased Bolt maker


Your dad:
Arthur John Humphrey Oakes, who is your dad,  married your mother when you were 10 yrs old.
Do any details match with the Phillips marriage on that certificate?
What was your dad's occupation on the certificates?
I think I recall reading that you have proof that Mr Oakes is correct because of family photos in London area.

(Rootschat's policy is not to publish details of living people and I think you removed the whole post).

Often a late marriage is because one of the parties was previously married and the couple wait for the previous partner's death but in this case, you believe that he used a different name anyway.

Also it has been known that a different name was used because of WW1 service -when a soldier absconded or similar but if he was born abt 1901 he would be too young perhaps.

it's a mystery for sure.

heywood

Added:
As he was 30-ish when he married Lily M, he may have been married before that and was covering something up then    (complicates matters even more!)

[Kleftiwallah]

Bit of background here.

I was brought up as A.L.O-P and I was under the impression that Dad's name was also Phillips, I thought his forenames were Andrew Charles Hamilton (Anthony) OAKES. After looking into the name Phillips I got nowhere so I wrote to all the names in my Mam's address book (both parents had died before this quest took off).

I got two replies, one from Bannockburn Stirling Scotland which said that she married into the family and my husband died some years ago and never really spoke about his family. The other was from a very old Lady in Chelmsford, we were invited to visit her and her niece and she said that Dad's name never was Phillips, it was Oakes!

She remembers him being 6 ish years older than her and always seemed to be shouting at or being shouted at by their Mother. After one particularly loud exchange, my Dad ran out of the house and she never saw him again. So he had dumped his Surname and all his forenames!

She did bring out a small 'photo showing me and my little sister aged about five and two dressed in 'fancy dress' while taking part in a local Fete, so he had been in touch. As a birthday present, my wife paid for us to change our name by deed poll and regain the surname he dumped, but also keep the surname he #invented for himself! So now we are the O-P
His Date of Birth was 30th September 1901 at 166 St John's Road Walthamstow. His Dad was Arthur Charles and a bootmaker Journeyman.

I've taken the advice and removed my surname (very new to this sort of thing).  I shall go back through this "thread" and reply to each question in turn.  I hope you will bear with me as this may take some time!

Cheers,  Tony.

[Kleftiwallah]

Heywood – Dad’s occupation on his first marriage cert’ (to Lily)  is down as a baker.  There is a rumour that he was ‘early on’ a trainee confectioner in a bakery in the Old Kent Road.  This may be sometime 1900-1915.

You ask “   Do you have any details whatsoever about Arthur's earlier life? Do you have any details whatsoever about Arthur's earlier life”?

 I haven’t a clue as to ANY of his life until he married Mam in Penrith Cumberland on the 30th July 1958.  I would dearly like to know.  There is a rumour that he was present at the Easter Rising In Dublin, possibly with the Sherwood Foresters. But this is just yet another rumour.

I have a clock and I remember it always being on the mantelpiece at home and there were four small holes below the face as though a plaque was once there.  After my Mam died (Dad had gone before by some years) in the back of a drawer was a plaque that fitted the holes and it said
“ Presented to Mr A.C.H. Phillips on the occasion of his marriage by the staff . 1125 shop June 1931”.

I believe this shop was Boots the Chemist and this plaque is now back in place below the face of his presentation clock.

Silvery, 

why the tears?  I believe I have Dad’s birth cert’ Reg District West Ham and sub District Walthamstow in Essex. The only number on the cert is in column 1 which is  324.

Garstonite,
I have both my Dad’s birth cert (A.J.H. OAKES) and his death cert as Andrew Charles Hamilton PHILLIPS.  I’ll certainly have a shufti at the 1901 census.

Heywood,
Your puzzled !. . .On his first marriage cert, he said his Dad’s occupation was a seaman and on his 2nd marriage cert (to my Mam) this imaginary Dad had been promoted to Master Mariner!  I remember my Mam sewing a black diamond onto the upper arm of his jacket so with hindsight, I can only presume that Lily had died and her family had informed Dad and then he went on to marry Mam so I’m thinking maybe Lily was a Catholic and marriage was for life.

I’m hoping if I can track down a relative from Dad and Lily, they may know more about the old fibber!

Many many ongoing thanks to you all.   The quest goes on.

Cheers,   Tony.

[silvery]

So many names!   

Who was the lady in Chelmsford and what relation?   You say she talked about 'their' mother.   

[avm228]

Does this fairly summarise the main points so far?

1887 (Sep qtr): Birth of Lily MANCHESTER to William, a boltmaker, & Sarah A. (nee WOOD) in Oldham.

1893: Death of William MANCHESTER aged 45.

1899 (Dec qtr): Marriage of Arthur Charles OAKES to Elizabeth Mary SANFORD, Hackney (FreeBMD).

1901 (30 Sep): Birth of Arthur John Humphrey OAKES, 166 St John's Rd, Walthamstow. Father Arthur Charles, journeyman bootmaker.

In early life – Arthur jr possibly trained as a confectioner in the Old Kent Road?

1916: Arthur was possibly at the Easter Rising in Dublin as a Sherwood Forester?

1931 (Jun): Presentation of clock by store staff (Boots the Chemist?) to A.C.H. PHILLIPS on the occasion of his marriage – clock remains in the family.

1931 (9 Jun): Marriage of Andrew Charles PHILLIPS (“36”, baker) to Lily MANCHESTER (“38”, daughter of William, boltmaker, decd), Lancaster.

1958 (30 Jul): Remarriage of Andrew C. H. PHILLIPS, Penrith.

1977 (Dec qtr): Death of Andrew Charles Hamilton PHILLIPS, DOB 1 Jan 1895, Penrith.

[Radcliff]

 
Is this Dads sister
St Mary, Stoke Newington,
Hackney
Elizabeth Amy Oakes
born 28th August 1900
baptised 20 September
father Arthur Charles Oakes  a bootmaker
mother Elizabeth Mary
address,28 Neville Road

[avm228]

Possible death for Lily?

Death, Jun qtr 1958

Lily PHILLIPS aged 70

Carlisle 1a 64.