Laurence William Holwell Short

[Yasmina4]

Laurence W H Short.  Any decendants  out there?

1871 Census Ontario
Laurence William Holwell Short 38  m born England
Eliza 31born  Ontario m
Fred William7 born Ontario
Charlotte6 born Ontario
Edward 3 born Ontario
Caroline 6 months  born  Ontario

Laurence,became a farmer, was from Derby, England and baptised , 29 March 1833.  He was the son of William Holwell Short.  He emigrated to Canada in 1848.

Sandra

[JaneyCanuck]

The odds of a post here catching a descendant's eye are a little slim, although these things do happen.

Others might be able to help trace them, though. Knowing where in Ontario is important. In 1871, the subdistrict was Logan and the district was Perth North -- in southwestern Ontario between Toronto and London. I can't see the family in the 1881 census - have you found them?
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1881/001049-100.01-e.php

They had more children after 1871 - mother Eliza Sophia Gill, it can help to know for searching:
George Holwell Short 1874
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2NP-1RJ
Maria Lucy Marian Short 1877
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FMQ3-FRS
Maria married Mark Lumley in British Columbia in 1907:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JD81-YLC
and died in BC in 1930:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FL2Z-PTL

Here they are in 1901 in Manitoba -- found by searching for Maria:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=72891&highlight=11
Edward G, 1868
Richard R, 1872
Eliza S, 1839
C Eleanora H, 1865 (presumably Charlotte)
Caroline E, 1870
Maria L M, 1877
Alice, 1882

You can search for marriages (to 1936) and deaths (to 1991) for the other children here, if others of them relocated to BC:
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-CA2EA2/gbsearch/Births,Marriages,Deaths
(births are not accessible after 1903).
Eliza Sophia Short died in Vancouver in 1927, e.g. I'm not finding much for the others ...

Eliza, Richard and Alice were in New Westminster, BC, in 1911:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=60907&highlight=45&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Richard+Short

Also, Manitoba vital stats:
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php

Caroline Emily Short died in 1939, aged 68.

Frederick William Howell Short married Emma Graham in 1891.
They are in Manitoba in 1911 with daughter Elsie Gertrude:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=66014&highlight=5&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Fredrick+William+Holand+Short
and I had missed them in 1911 -- they are on the same page as Eliza and the other children.
However, he died in Ontario in 1941:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLGK-L4R

Elsie married John Gordon Turiff in 1916 in Manitoba.
There is an S Turiff in Manitoba in 1911, aged 18 (Elsie was 17) and only two others in Canada (not counting very likely mistranscriptions).
Hm, I suspect a misspelling of Turriff, which shows almost 100 listings in the phone book at present - www.canada411.ca. Yes; here is John Gordon in 1911, also in Marquette:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=66010&highlight=36&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+John+Gordon+Turriff
He was killed in 1918 in France:
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem/Detail/558170
Elsie died in BC in 1949. It seems unlikely they had children. He enrolled in the CEF in 1916 three weeks before his marriage:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc016/644163a.gif

Here is the family in 1881, btw, in Manitoba, now that we know where to look, and their propensity for using middle names:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008211010.jpg
L William, 47
Eliza, 42
Fredk, 17
Eleanora, 16 (Charlotte)
Edwd, 13
Caroline, 11
Richd, 9
George, 6
Lucy, 4 (Maria)

Trying to complete the set of children now that I've started! --

Edward in 1916 in Marquette:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMGV-5K9
with wife Sarah and stepdaughter Margo Hackey.

George in 1916 in Marquette:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMGV-5KW
with wife Esther and two children:
Hazel, 4
Clara, 2
and "Eloma" Short, aged 50, sister, evidently Charlotte Eleanora.
I don't see any further trace of the daughters.

But finally, some better news for finding descendants: Lucy (Maria) and Mark Lumly in 1911 in Vancouver:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=61801&highlight=3&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Mark+Lumly
with two children, both daughters, aargh (for finding their descendants):
Harriat, 11
Rita, 9
Danged if I can find them in 1916 at familysearch, but they may be up to the middle name tricks:
Mabel Rita Lumley was born Dec 1902 in Vancouver ... no marriage found in BC.
And nothing found for Harriat. But actually, they were Maria Lucy's stepdaughters anyway since she married Mark in 1907 ...

[Yasmina4]

The odds of a post here catching a descendant's eye are a little slim, although these things do happen.

Others might be able to help trace them, though. Knowing where in Ontario is important. In 1871, the subdistrict was Logan and the district was Perth North -- in southwestern Ontario between Toronto and London. I can't see the family in the 1881 census - have you found them?
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1881/001049-100.01-e.php

They had more children after 1871 - mother Eliza Sophia Gill, it can help to know for searching:
George Holwell Short 1874
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2NP-1RJ
Maria Lucy Marian Short 1877
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FMQ3-FRS
Maria married Mark Lumley in British Columbia in 1907:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JD81-YLC
and died in BC in 1930:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FL2Z-PTL

Here they are in 1901 in Manitoba -- found by searching for Maria:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=72891&highlight=11
Edward G, 1868
Richard R, 1872
Eliza S, 1839
C Eleanora H, 1865 (presumably Charlotte)
Caroline E, 1870
Maria L M, 1877
Alice, 1882

You can search for marriages (to 1936) and deaths (to 1991) for the other children here, if others of them relocated to BC:
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-CA2EA2/gbsearch/Births,Marriages,Deaths
(births are not accessible after 1903).
Eliza Sophia Short died in Vancouver in 1927, e.g. I'm not finding much for the others ...

Eliza, Richard and Alice were in New Westminster, BC, in 1911:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=60907&highlight=45&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Richard+Short

Also, Manitoba vital stats:
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php

Caroline Emily Short died in 1939, aged 68.

Frederick William Howell Short married Emma Graham in 1891.
They are in Manitoba in 1911 with daughter Elsie Gertrude:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=66014&highlight=5&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Fredrick+William+Holand+Short
and I had missed them in 1911 -- they are on the same page as Eliza and the other children.
However, he died in Ontario in 1941:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLGK-L4R

Elsie married John Gordon Turiff in 1916 in Manitoba.
There is an S Turiff in Manitoba in 1911, aged 18 (Elsie was 17) and only two others in Canada (not counting very likely mistranscriptions).
Hm, I suspect a misspelling of Turriff, which shows almost 100 listings in the phone book at present - www.canada411.ca. Yes; here is John Gordon in 1911, also in Marquette:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=66010&highlight=36&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+John+Gordon+Turriff
He was killed in 1918 in France:
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem/Detail/558170
Elsie died in BC in 1949. It seems unlikely they had children. He enrolled in the CEF in 1916 three weeks before his marriage:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc016/644163a.gif

Here is the family in 1881, btw, in Manitoba, now that we know where to look, and their propensity for using middle names:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008211010.jpg
L William, 47
Eliza, 42
Fredk, 17
Eleanora, 16 (Charlotte)
Edwd, 13
Caroline, 11
Richd, 9
George, 6
Lucy, 4 (Maria)

JaneyCanuck,  I am mesmerised.

How on earth did you do all that in no time at all?

All I had been given after fruitlessly searching for the disappearing Laurence was that he reached
Canada in 1848. He popped up with a wife and family in 1871 and appeared to be separated in 1901.   Since I had expected him to be in India I found the person who found Laurence in Canada totally amazing!




Thank you so much for the information you have given.
I hoped someone connected with this fas.cinating family would come on board.  I understand that there are a couple  of trees on ances....  devoted to the Shorts and I hoped one of the tree makers might be members of Rootscom.

Laurence's cousin 'Edward Holwell Short, had a quiver full of children in India around the same period as Laurence's family were appearing.
My son in law is descended from Edwards side of the family.

Laurence was born in Dronfield, Derby, baptised and apparantly taken away by his father almost immediately.

Where he was between 1833 and 1847 is a question unanswered.

His mother came from a landed family in Wales .  There is a possibilty that Laurence would have inherited if  his father had stuck around!

Many many thanks for all your information.  It is greatly appreciated.

Regards Sandra

[JaneyCanuck]

Ah, the background details are always useful!

(Check back to my post at the bottom -- I just kept editing and adding as I went along, having no work to keep me busy this week, with the government in hibernation here in Canada ...)

I noticed the repetition of names while searching records at familysearch -- Laurence's grandmother was Charlotte Eleanora I think it was, for instance.

What's amazing is that from all those children, it's quite possible there are no living descendants at all. Some didn't marry, one was widowed in WWI having had apparently no time with her husband, a couple of them had stepchildren ... !! The Turriff is a possibility, and there are prominent Turriffs in Canada: go to www.google.ca, search for the surname, then click "Search tools" at the top, then click "The web" and select "Pages from Canada" (rather like clicking "Start" to turn your computer off, the way google has messed the whole thing up now). If we could find the Lumleys in 1916, possibly there were children to that marriage. There were such a crowd of children I was having trouble keeping tabs on what and whom I had found.

I'd assumed Eliza was widowed in 1901, but it seems from what you say that Laurence was still kicking around somewhere. I didn't find a death for him.

If there are trees at Ancestry, you can contact the owners via the free mirror site: www.mundia.com -- you have to register to search, and then when you get results, you click on the tree owner's name and you can send messages that are received via their Ancestry account, and give you email address or get replies in your account at Mundia.

[Yasmina4]

 :)Ooo had forgotten Mundia.  Joined last week but did not have much idea how to use it!  Duh.

What a pity that the Canadian  family may have died out.

The line descends from John Short of Dronfield formerly of Madras.  That sent the pulses racing.  The direct line I am following is John Short;s grandson Edward son of a Rector of Ashover. Lawrence Short.

I had assumed that Edward was the first to adventure to the subcontinent until I had that quote.  Cannot find him yet.i.e. John of Madras and according to an informant that John had a father John........We are back in late 1600s there if we can capture that one.

Have a look at Other countries India Maureen Holwell Short.  That will gie you a lot of the background on my son in law's side.

And go to England Board Derby for what we had on Laurence  background.




Thank you for your time
Hugs Sandra

[JaneyCanuck]

I think Mark Lumley was first married to Florence McDonald in 1892, and then, after Maria Lucy's death in 1930, married Annie Lauretta Ezeard in 1933.
He died in 1956 at 84 and she died in 1975 at 96.
There were two Mark Lumleys born in Vancouver, 1908 and 1910, who died in infancy (the only way to see records of them, as the births were after the cutoff) -- likely children of Mark and Maria Lucy Short.

Oh aargh, the 1916 census covered Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta and that's why I can't find them in BC in that year, duh!

We've crossed in the post; I'll follow your directions.

But I've found the Turriffs in Marquette, Manitoba in 1916:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMGV-VMG
John, 20, and "Cloie", 21, who must be Elsie ... too soon for them to have kids, though, and he would have been off to the front after that, and she didn't remarry. Damn that war.

[JaneyCanuck]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,629723.0.html

From the info in that thread I found the trees at Mundia and see that everything I've found and more is in them. Oh well, you did say you were looking for family members, and all this messing around in people's family history certainly wards of Alzheimer!

[Yasmina4]

Hi Janey

I did not see your last reply come thru my inbox so did not thank you for all your work on behalf of the family.

A young lady short from south Africa made a brief appearance on ancestry. From her photo she has a very strong family likeness to other photos in the family.. must have done a free trial.  She appears to be a great grand daughter of Vere borethistle short. Hoping she will reappear.  Vere was descended from Reverend Lawrence short of Derbyshire.  Brother of the central character of my research a great niece of William short ,Lawrence 'father.  Vere's sister, Maureen short.  See other countries.
Did I say that I found Lawrence joining his father in USA when he was 18.  He had been brought up by his mother's parents.  They owned the estate llwynywormwood, now owned by hrh prince Charles.  It is is in Myddfai, near llandovery carmarthenshire.    Father was living with a janr short..shades of Jane Eyre.

Lawrence inherited from his mother's estate.
Thank you again. Sandra