Lookup request-Joseph TURNER born c 1894

[turnera]

Hi,

I am trying to pin-point a Joseph TURNER whom married Millicent Roberts on 21st May 1921 at the Plymouth Registry Office. On the marriage certificate he was shown as a farm labourer, and his father John Turner (deceased), Railway Engine Driver. He was shown as aged 27.  At the of the wedding it says they were living at 6 Jubilee Place, Embankment Rd, Plymouth. His wife Millicent was pregnant with my Grandad Victor George Turner whom was born 14th August 1921, I understand that Joseph wasnt the father but paid by the family to marry Millicent. On my Grandad's birth certificate his father was shown as  Victor Joseph Turner (and signed as Victor J Turner) as general labourer living at 73 Regent Street, Plymouth.

I am still curious to try and identify whom this Joseph  or Victor Joseph was and found out what happened to him.

Can anyone assist?

[CaroleW]

Hi

If you check freebmd - there are only 2 births for that full name - 1897 and 1906

When and where did Joseph die?  His death cert will confirm if his birthyear was definitely 1894.  A Victor J Turner died Wirral Cheshire 1959 aged 63

He may have dropped his first christian name when he married in 1921

If you use the following link   www.1901censusonline.com

Select Advanced Search and then complete name and surname for his father John, gender and occupation.  Under occupation you can put in engine driver or railway engine driver

Bearing in mind that Joseph was born 1894-1897 you would be looking for a John Turner old enough to have fathered a child with the occ shown on the 1921 marriage cert

You would then have to lookup each of the possibilities on the full 1901 census to see if they had a son Victor/ Joseph

[JaneyCanuck]

There is a perfectly matching Victor Turner (age, occupation, county) in the 1911 census. I can't put the details here ... however, in 1901 his father is Albert, a farmer. Just to rule him out! (Assuming there are at least grains of truth in the marriage certificate / birth certificate info.)

Devon just isn't littered with Joseph or Victor Turners in 1901/1911, or in the births index circa 1894.

As I understand your post, this was not a genuine marriage and the spouses did not cohabit, so I imagine you know nothing about him (e.g. his death) after the birth of the child?

The only match at CaroleW's 1901 link for a John Turner / occupation railway is a man in Essex who was a railway engine driver, and he had no matching son.

It's possible that if the information about the father was true, he had died between Victor Joseph's birth and 1901.

I love a mystery man! I would suspect there is at least one piece of info on those documents that is not quite true.

It's interesting that he registered the birth of young Victor George, who also seems to have got his name. Perhaps he really was the father.

Can you give us a little more info? How old was Millicent when they married? (His age might have been adjusted to better match hers.) Was she Millicent Kennard Roberts born 1903 in Plymouth? So, almost a decade younger than VJ's stated age, not yet 18 when married, from a white-collar family ...

Did Millicent marry again in 1925 under her birth name?? (The death of Millicent Kennard Boyes born 1903, 1898 Kingsbridge, matches the Roberts birth and that marriage.) Since that record doesn't say "Roberts or Turner" (as is usual for a divorced woman), it suggests she was widowed ... or fibbing about her status.

[turnera]

Hi there I've only just spotted replies to these messages -sorry!

Millicent was born 1900 -milicent rose roberts St Keverne Cornwall. The original family story was that my grandfather's dad -i.e. Joseph victor  Turner or Victor joseph Turner went to Canada and so my grandad was brought up by hismum and his grandad-- Henry Roberts.

It transpired only a few years ago -- that I found out that this Joseph/Victor wasn't the biological father and was paid to marry Milicent as she got pregnant by a Mr Everett who didn't want to marry her. Millicent was 21 when she married this Joseph/Victor and he as shown as aged 27 (marriage date 21 May 1921 ). My granddad was born only a couple months later in Aug 1921! So she would have been heavily pregnant . I do find it strange nevertheless as to why my granddad was named after a man that wasn't his biological father (one believes) , however I guess at that time it would have been a stigma and so for keeping up appearances this was done. So as to what happened to Joseph/Victor we don't know-- moving to Canada sounds a bit drastic? but it's possible if he was given enough money to make a new start! Or possibly he went away for a bit and came back.  I guess if I can pin him down and subsequent generations I might be able to piece to together what happened.  Millicent obviously kept up the pretence as on her death certificate --my grandad registered her death in 1967 she was shown as widowed.

I missed a big clue and only spotted it tonight - in that she made a will 9th Sept 1921 stating she was the wife of Victor Turner , in  which her Son was named as sole beneficiary (assuming he had reached the age of 21) or her father if her son pre-deceased, so effectively excluding . Joseph/Victor  was not mentioned.

In hindsight perhaps why my grandad never used his christian name Victor ?  We all called him George his middle name.

I'm thinking I might have to wait for the 1921 census to see if there is anything else that might help shed some light into the past!

[turnera]

Just to add - Milicent never re-married.

Cheers

[JaneyCanuck]

Blast from the past!

None of the Victor Turners travelling out fit the bill: a lecturer in medicine, a dentist, a cattle rancher, a merchant ...

There were, of course, a few dozen Joseph Turners travelling to Canada in the 10 years after the marriage.


There was only one Mr. Everett marriage ever in Helston district, 1861 ... and I refuse to believe the man's name was Ghiblim. That's what it appears to say, and indeed he is in censuses as such. No Everetts there in 1901 or 1911.

Anyway so now we know we are starting in Cornwall not Devon - the Plymouth registry office would be a place to go for anonymity if they were not really living there. And I see no 6 Jubilee Place, but 7 was a bit of a hive of bedsits from the look of it.

But we find no Joseph Turner born 1890-1900 in Cornwall either.

You know if somebody wanted to make a dog's breakfast of details ... there is an Everad John Turner (Anc'y mistranscribes as Evered), labourer, born c1894, in St Blazey, father Archibald a pedlar, living on Station Road. In 1901 Archibald was a plumber, which his other son was later; and in 1901 "Everad John" is called Everad George (Anc'y mistranscribes as Everard). No birth to match.

But aha, here that one is, and we do have "George" turning up (not John):

Births Mar 1894 
Turner    George Everad         St. Austell    5c   91

Likely died in 1948 in St Austell. And married 1930 St Austell, a little late in life.

Is it possible that the story got all turned around, and what he really did was use a false name to marry, but was really the father?

Child named George, father named Mr. Everett ... could the father just have been George Everad?

Or ... maybe it was "Victor Joseph" who was the real father, just not Turner?

This one is a little interesting

Births Jun 1897 
Turpin    Joseph Victor        Plymouth    5b   275    
Marriages Dec 1922 
TURPIN    Joseph V    Jervis    Plymouth    5b   579
actually to Lillian Violet Jarvis 1898, 2 children    
Deaths Dec 1943   
Turpin    Joseph V    46    Plymouth    5b   422

His father ... George ... was a building contractor.


It's all a little far-fetched but it has the grains of potential truth in it that could add up to something ... if JV Turpin's family refused to let him be ruined by it all, and Millicent's family found the paid-off patsy, just as reported, but with the names all just a little different.

[turnera]

Yes indeed it has been awhile! It's like a difficult jigsaw 

I would say that whilst Millicent was born in cornwall , the family moved to Plymouth sometime between after the 1911 census and 1921. By 1921 they were very wedded to Plymouth. I guess with some digging I probably can pin-point the dates by school admission records to see which school Milicent attended and or I think her Dad Henry penrose roberts owned a scrap shop in plymouth.

So I am still leaning towards individuals in and around Plymouth although it is not inconceivable that that they didn't move in one go from St Keverne to Plymouth -- quite a distance in those days !

I believe there is a 1915 register coming out on findmypast soon-- so perhaps I can bridge the time gap here-although Millicent would be too young I imagine to have made acquaintance with either this elusive Joseph/Victor (I'm starting to think Victor is more likely) and Mr Everett .

I like a good mystery!

Cheers
Andy