Author Topic: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835  (Read 8794 times)

Offline BonnieDownUnder

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Hello,
My 2xggm, Ellen Holmes, died 05 May 1893 at Leadville, near Cassilis, NSW Australia aged 57 years.  Her death certificate does not show parents names but it said she was born in the 'New England area' of NSW and she had two (supposedly) husbands, a Mr. Chandler and a James Holmes.

I have not found a marriage registration to a Mr. Chandler but do have her marriage certificate to James Holmes, 09 Apr 1878 at the Congregational Church, Gulgong, NSW.  She stated her name as Helen Chandler, widow;  no age, place of birth, parents names etc shown but I do know it is her as son-in-law, my great grandfather, was a witness.

Her first child, Georgina Jane (my ggm) was born at Loders Creek near Singleton NSW 22 July 1858. Georgina has two birth certificates, one in the surname of Chandler, the other Burke. (very strange) No father's name shown on either certificates and Helen states she is 20 years of age, born Scone NSW

Helen/Ellen went on to have three more children, using the surname Chandler and no father's name listed.  In 1871 she had a son James who died the same year and his surname listed as HOLMES with father James.  Then a George Holmes was born 1874 at Gulgong, mother Helen, father James, and an Elizabeth Helen in 1876 with same details. Another possible child, Thomas H. Holmes born c1872 died 1932 at Mudgee, with parents names Ellen and James.

With the registration of her children's birth, their marriage and death certificates, various maiden names for Helen/Ellen have appeared, being Morley, Welch, Delaney, Newham along with Chandler and various birth places, ie Scone, Newcastle, Singleton, Muswellbrook

The best fit I have come up with is a baptismal record for an Ellen Welch 17 Nov 1835 at St Mary's Cathedral - parents James Welch and Ellen Kain ... but it is in Sydney!

Welcome any input ... Bonnie

Offline rosball

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1876
« Reply #1 on: Friday 25 January 13 06:08 GMT (UK) »
Hi Bonnie,
  Have you tried contacting the church archives to see if they have the parents' names etc.   Here is an excellent thread of advice from JM about gaps on NSW marriage certs http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.msg4001775.html#msg4001775

I was successful in getting a detailed transcription of a cert from the church archives.

regards,
   Ros

(adding by the way you have a typo in the title for the birthdate  :) )
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Offline BonnieDownUnder

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #2 on: Friday 25 January 13 19:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ros, Thanks your reply and link. The Congregational Church in Gulgong closed a long long time ago.  I visited the Gulgong Pioneers Museum and Historical Society who are extremely well organised (one of the best Historical Society's I have visited) and very helpful, but unfortunately they didn't have original or copies of the Church's BDM's registry.  The Congregational Churches were amalgamated into the Uniting Churches so I contacted the head office but unfortunately they, at the time, told me that they didn't have any records from the Gulgong Church.  I hadn't thought about contacting the local Court House, will give it a try.  Many thanks.  Bonnie
(PS Typo fixed, thanks!)


Offline giblet

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #3 on: Friday 25 January 13 21:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi Bonnie,

You posted Georgina Jane  born at Loders Creek near Singleton in 1858

What years and district were the other Chandler children born?

I was wondering how long it was between the last Chandler birth and first child born as Holmes.
If she was infact a widow when she married Holmes it might help narrow some dates down on when Mr Chandler died. His death cert. might have info on it that might help.

Offline giblet

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #4 on: Friday 25 January 13 22:13 GMT (UK) »
Since Burke was on one of the cert. i wonder if Ellen/Helen maiden name was actually Burke. Maybe she just lived with Chandler without marrying him.

Offline Neil Todd

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #5 on: Friday 25 January 13 23:01 GMT (UK) »
Umm what about the Ellen Holmes born 1833. Ref: V1833876 18/1833

I am wildly supposing she never married mr Chandler. But may had his children.

Neil
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Offline BonnieDownUnder

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 26 January 13 01:24 GMT (UK) »
GIBLET - Thanks your reply. 
Georgina Jane Chandler and Burke b.22 Jul 1858 Loders Creek.  Have copy of church record of her marriage and shows father's name 'John Chandler, a drover and mother Helen Morley'. No luck finding births Helen/Ellen Morley or derivations.  When she died, no mother's name shown on death certificate and father's name shown as Chandler.

Matilda Charlotte Chandler 08 Dec 1860 Singleton, no father's name; died 1887 no mother or father's name listed.

Emma Chandler 24 Mar 1864 Newcastle, no father's name.  Died 1868 Newcastle. Mother Ellen, Father John but don't have that death certificate.

Emilly Chandler born 19 Jan 1869 Newcastle, no father's name. When she married in 1907 she used the surname Holmes and father as James Holmes, mother maiden name Helen Burke with same details on her death certificate 1927

James Holmes born and died 1871 in Newcastle.  Father James Holmes, mother Helen both regs.

George Holmes born 09 Jul 1874 Gulgong, father James Holmes, mother Helen nee Chandler.  On his death certificate, 1923, father James Holmes, mother Ellen nee Delaney.

Elizabeth Helen Holmes born 14 Nov 1876 Gulgong, father James Holmes, mother Helen nee Welch.  When she married, father shown as Alfred Holmes and mother's maiden name as Helene Newham.  When she died in 1945, no parents details shown.

Like you said, I also think that she didn't actually marry Mr. Chandler, just lived with him.  I also feel that she could of been a 'lady of the night'! ... a few interesting things I have found has lead me to this conclusion.

Have searched under Helen/Ellen Burke and derivations plus the other surnames ... thank heavens NSW BDM's are free to search! ... but if you have any other thoughts, please do let me know.
Thanks Bonnie

Offline giblet

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 26 January 13 01:48 GMT (UK) »
I wouldnt be surprised if Ellen/Helen parents were convicts. She was born mid 1830's. Not that helps any when we cant find her birth. Maybe her birth/baptism wasnt registered.

I'll keep looking and see if anything shows up.
Thanks for the extra info.

Offline BonnieDownUnder

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Re: Helen or Ellen BURKE/WELCH/MORLEY/DELANEY/CHANDLER/HOLMES !!! born c1835
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 26 January 13 02:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi Giblet ...  I too wouldn't be surprised if Ellen/Helen parents were convicts.  Having looked into the history of the Scone/Singleton area, between 1826 and 1834, 3,000 convicts built the Great North Road into the Hunter Valley area.
Thanks again, I could have missed something on the NSW BDM that you may spot.  Bonnie

Hi Neil ... thanks your reply. Yeah, I doubt that she actually married Mr. Chandler but it is figuring out what her birth name (Helen or Ellen) and surname actually was - I reckon if they had a competition on Roots Chat to find who's ancestor had to most surnames, I would win it hands down!