Martin and Donald (McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy)

[Peter MacDonald]

Hello,

There is an entry in the Scottish Privy Council Records on 10 July 1625.  Two of the individuals mentioned are:

1.  Martin McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Knoydart

2.  Donald McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Killastardertach

I have my direct paternal MacDonald traced to Martin MacDonald (born ca 1755) who arrived and settled in Nova Scotia, Canada in an area he was credited in naming the area where he settled as Knoydart. 

There is over 100 years between my most distant direct paternal ancestor (Martin MacDonald) and the Martin and Donald listed above.  Aside from the Privy Record, I have been unable to find any record to assist in bridging the generations missing between them, assuming of course there is a relationship.  There is also a chance that there is no relationship, however with the name Martin and the location of Knoydart, there is (in my opinion) a better than 50% chance .  I was hoping somebody might have some information/knowledge of Martin and Donald along with their Ancestors.

I am aware of the Clan Ian Ruadh thread here on the Inverness board and on the Canada board.  I do not believe that genealogy nor the chart associated with it to be correct.  Perhaps my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald was the first to take on the surname MacDonald when he immigrated to North America (unfortunately I have no idea when the surname MacDonald was adopted). 

My Y DNA is R1B which is not that of the Chiefs, which to my understanding is true for approx 80% of Clan Donald, which are not R1A.  There is always a chance of a non paternal event, however, where there is such a large percent of Clan Donald that are R1B such an argument is extremely weak. 

This said I have no real idea what the direct paternal ancestral line of Martin MacDonald would be (aside not that of MacDonald/Clan Donald).

Any information/comments/or ideas of where to search would be greatly appreciated, as I have been working on this brick wall in my research for a number of years.

Peter MacDonald

[angusm1939]

Without trying to address all the issues you raise, I may be able to help with a couple of them.

Just to reinforce what, I am sure you already know, the lack of direct descent from the eponym or founding family is common to all the Highland clans. There were people already in place when any pre-surname set of rulers moved in and membership of the clan was initially via being recognised in your case as Domhnullach, of clan Donald. As the translation to surnames occurred over the centuries, that allegiance was naturally enhanced to become the surname MacDonald. The chiefs themselves were using McDonnull and various equivalents back in the 14th century and perhaps earlier.

In 1610, the men of Knoydart raided Laggan Auchindoun in Glengarry and brought the wrath of Glengarry and of the Privy Council down on their heads. In 1611, the Knoydart chief, Ranald of Knoydart was forfeited and his lands were granted to Cameron of Locheil, a grant confirmed by King James VI in 1614. Shortly after, Raoghnall mac Iain 'ic Aonghais of Knoydart was murdered. There went the chiefly R1a bloodline as he was last of the line of Somerled to rule Knoydart. Thereafter, just as in the case of Ardnamurchan and Sunart, where lists of attackers from the Clanranald lands in Moidart and the Isles were the subject of complaints to the Privy Council, the local leaders, such as those you mention, continued to try to restore the status quo ante.

I suspect, incidentally that the Donald mac Eane, subject with others of a complaint in company with Clanranald about an invasion of Sunart, in 1612 or so, may also have been your man.

There is a fairly modern book by Norman MacDonald the Clan Donald historian covering Glengarry and Knoydart in great detail and you may also find useful background in 'The Clan Donald', the three volume work by the Revs A & A MacDonald.

[Peter MacDonald]

Hello AngusM,

Thank you for your reply to my post.  I have read up on a number of histories on Clan Donald including 'The Clan Donald', the three volume work by the Revs A & A MacDonald.  I haven't read Norman MacDonald Glengarry and Knoydart as it is out of print, however, I have his more recent book on the Clan Ranald.  The oral traditional of my family is that of being that of Clan Ranald.  Although it is possible that there was marriage into Clan Ranald, Y DNA testing has indicated that I am not of a direct paternal descendant of the current Chiefly lines.

As a lot of smaller Clans/families (whose genealogies aren't a part of the Clan Donald Genealogy) allied themselves with Clan Donald, I feel that in order to search for my direct paternal line it will be necessary to look away from Clan Donald history.  I am hoping to determine where the lines of Martin McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy and Donald McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy originated from geographically.  Were they settled in Knoydart and Killastardertach (could someone please tell me where is this is?) generations prior to VcEane Roy or did they migrate there from somewhere like Kintyre?  If so from whom? 

I have been searching Scottish Privy Council Records on Ancestry 1545-1632 to attempt to find potential connects, however I need to be able to trace from Martin MacDonald (born ca 1755).  Are the Scottish Privy Council Records for 1632 to 1876 available anywhere?

AngusM, I would greatly appreciate if you could share your thoughts regarding whether Martin McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Knoydart and Donald McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Killastardertach were just common individuals that were entered into the Scottish Privy Record or were they listed because they were leading man they took to support ClanRanald?  Do you feel its possible that they came from somewhere in the Isles or somewhere south like Kintyre?

Any MacDonalds out there with the name Martin in your genealogy pre 1800?

Peter

[angusm1939]

Hello Peter

Thanks for your response. May I say that you do seem to have been doing all the right things in your research. I don't know where you live but I would have thought that, if you have some sort of inter-library loan scheme, the out-of-print Norman MacDonald book would be well worth getting hold of. As we know from his Garmoran book, heis tops on relevant detail. Failing access, last time I looked, he was on the main Clan donald website and you might be able to contact him directly and I am sure he would help if possible.

You have a couple of questions I think I can throw some light on. The first is about whether the guys with the shared sloinneadh would be out of the ordinary. They certainly would as what is shown in the complaints to the Secret Council is a list of those forming the chief(tain)'s 'tail.' One of the divisions in Gaelic Society that the Statutes of Iona 1608 and 1616 tried to address was that there was an elite group of followers that accompanied the leaders wherever they went, did no work and lived by sorning on the population at large. This tail included bards, musicians, a bodyguard plus an archer or two, plus and what we would now call heavies, who were involved in defence of the clan and creachs to take cattle and other forays. My own roots are in Benbecula in the outer isles and so I am familiar with the folks against whom complaints were made, particularly those involving Ranald MacDonald I of Benbecula, usually identified as 'of Castle Borve' or as uncle of the Clanranald chief. I know who most of the others named were. The MacMhuirichs mentioned, for example, were the bards/shennachies to Ranald and to the Clanranald chief, with homes in Benbecula and at Stilligarry in South Uist. The McBriens similarly etc.

You are right to keep in mind that, though listed on the mainland, it is entirely possible that anyone on the lists could be from the islands as the chiefs had fast birlinns and/or galleys and the sea crossing is only of the order of twenty miles. However, I would dismiss anything to do with a Martin as having an island connection. There is no instance of that use as a given name, ever, as far as I recall.

Your tradition of being Clanranald may be significant. However, Kinlochmoidart were descendants of Ranald the eponym and initially simply a cadet of the main line so the message may be no more than that you are part of the broad original definition but not specifically associated beyond that with Moidart or Uist/Benbecula. What it does suggest is that what seems to me the aberrant, and in all probability mistaken, association with the MacAllesters of Loup that seems to have crept into some tree analyses for Kinlochmoidart, does not apply to your branch of Clan Donald. It would be very unusual for an early forerunner of Clan Donald South to move after some hundreds of years of separation into the heart of Clanranald territory and become influential.

Have you registered the Donald mac Eane in one or more of the specifically Clanranald lists in the Garmoran book. It is curtailed compared with the sloinneadh you are working on and the coincidence of names makes leaping to conclusions dangerous but I would have thought keeping all such possibilities in mind might eventually turn something up.

One last thought. Is there a stack of Kinlochmoidart material in the Scottish National Archives analagous to the Clanranald chest? Most clans kept some sort of rental and other records, however patchy though the failure of the line of Kinlochmoidart chiefs may have meant destruction and cessation.

I must go back to the Garmoran book and have a closer look to see whether there was any recorded interplay between Clanranald and the relations/neighbours. Meanwhile, best wishes and good hunting. Do contact me if it you feel it might be useful to bounce thoughts off someone else.

Angus

[Peter MacDonald]

Angus,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in details as well as providing your thoughts on a number of issues.  Your encouragement is appreciated. 

You mentioned you didn't know where I was from:  I was born and raised in New Waterford, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and am currently living in Ottawa, Ontario (Canada).

Back to hunting the records.


Peter

[Peter MacDonald]

Hello,

I was hoping that someone might be able to point out to me where exactly "Killastardertach" is located.  I have been searching unsuccessfully to date.

Peter MacDonald

[Rosinish]

Hi Peter,

I do like to read threads & help if I can. I'm not sure if you have taken the spelling  of "Killastardertach" from a type written or a hand written document? If hand written you may want to have a closer look at the spelling and see if there is anywhere close on this list:-

http://www.uk-web-index.co.uk/townandvillage/Scotland/K/

It may also encourage others ideas of any possibilities?

Regards,

Anne Marie

[Peter MacDonald]

Anne Marie,

Thank you for the link, I will have to play around with it a bit more.  The spelling  of "Killastardertach" is from a 1628 Record of Scottish Privy Council, it was transcribed into a book.  It could be referring to a farm or a place that no longer exists today.

Thanks again.

Peter

[Peter MacDonald]

I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.  Heading back to the genealogical charts …. Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).

My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from Garry MacDonell Garry had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Garry of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to Garry’s 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.

My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province…came to Canada in 1780”.  The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “…Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of
Tryon County, N. York Province…”

This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston.

While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advanced Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.