I am stuck and am looking for help re: German ancestory - KUCHEL

[harlu]

After doing really well finding my English ancestors, I am hitting a brick wall in regards to the German side. It is to the point I think my paternal great great great great Grandfather just doesn't exist, which is obviously not the case because here I am.

The problem is I cannot find any records except for his name in a book about him immigrating to South Australian in 1838.

So am now asking for help. Can anyone please help me find him?

The information I have is  (which I hope is correct): Johann Georg Kuchel, immigrated to South Australia in 1838, on board a ship called the Zebra, at the age of 55. Occupation was nightwatchman.

I have tried looking on the German sites but it is beyond confusing and I just end up closing the pages out of frustration. Wishing now I had paid far more attention in German classes.

[Rena]

Hi there,

I've checked several German migration websites to see if there was mention of your ancestor as an "auswanderer" - these records usually give places of origin, birth dates and often countries migrated to.    In those days you had to have permission to leave and you could only leave after it became clear that you didn't owe allegiance to anyone or you didn't owe anyone any money, etc.   To publicise the fact that you'd asked for permission to leave, the village elders would place a notice on the town hall door.
 
 Unfortunately most websites have closed down and currently there's no mention of him in the remainder.  There's a couple of 18th century baptism entries on www.familysearch.org but they're a few years out.

I found that if migrants wrote home to say how good life was in the new country, then neighbours and/or their children and even decades later children of old friends followed and met up with the original migrant - so if you come across an am. family researcher following a surname you recognise my advice is stick close to them 

Having seen the current distribution of the surname in all parts of the land in the German white pages telephone book,   http://www2.dastelefonbuch.de    I don't envy you the task.   

To get a better idea I looked on all three of the German maps on the links shown on this website
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Surname_Distribution_Maps and quite a few groupings seem to be in the old British "Kingdom of Hannover" area.   This Kingdom was ceded to Scotland's King James in the 1600s as a dowry for his granddaughter Sophie.   

It sometimes helps to know a bit about the history of the time of our ancestors and I see the Australian web page below keeps mentioning "Prussia".  Modern day Germany was originally made up of several different Princedoms, Kingdoms, and Dukedoms, one of which was Prussia.   "Prussia" was a different country in the 1830s and liked to throw its weight about and in the 1860s it waged war on and defeated the Kingdom of Hanover. Unfortunately I don't know anything about Australia other than it was a British Colony and I'm wondering if that was the case, then possibly your ancestor was originally domiciled in the K of H.

This webpage gives four reasons why Germans emigrated from their homeland to Australia
http://www.teachers.ash.org.au/dnutting/germanaustralia/e/why-emi.htm#religion

Have you approached the Australian Lutheran church archivist to see if his name is listed in their database? German b.m.d. church records are the best I've seen and IF the Pastor of the early German Lutheran Church in Australia carried on that tradition you could take out several bricks in that wall you've got.  http://www.lca.org.au/archives.html    All citizens in Germanic states had to have registration cards and had to apply for travelling permits to move around.  Thus when your ancestor died, all the information on his card, such as his parents, father's occupation and his date & place of birth could (should) be noted in the church records.   I found my first clue to my German ancestry in the English Lutheran church records - I spotted my English born grandmother's baptism record some 2 months after she was born.  I'd already guessed that, as she was a 2nd daughter, she was named after her grandmother Sophie and sure enough there against grandmother's baptism was a woman called Sophie Ehlers who lived in a German town who's husband was a Heinrich Flamme,    Henry(Heinrich) also being the name of my grandmother's oldest brother.

For translations the Babelfish website and/or the google translation tool come in handy http://translate.google.co.uk/

Good luck

[harlu]

Thank you for your response.

I too have found the baptismal records on familysearch and yes, the year is out for a couple but I kept tracing anyway just in case. One was married but the wife's name was wrong (looking for Anna Dorothea Seiffert who he married in 1811) but then this wife died in 1814.

Johann left with his family because of religious persecution. The king at the time was demanding all that everyone convert to Catholicism. Some refused and sought help from people in London (the name George Fife Angus is ringing a bell). They got a ship organised and left their birthplace for good. So he is a part of the "Old Lutheran" group.

Anything after Johann I have. Where he lived (Hahndorf) and died etc, plus all the descendants from that. Its just the before Australia that it is just impossible to find out, especially when I have such very limited knowledge of the German language.

[Rena]

This is what I've discovered on English language webpages

Unfortunately not many people have put their Kuchel/Kuechel family databases on this website, unlike Seiffert which has many hits but unfortunately not your Anne.  For your future reference - Just by entering solely a place name (Ort) in the search facility, brings up all the surnames other people have traced who used to live in that place.   http://gedbas.genealogy.net/
=======

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/SAgermanindex.shtml

The passenger lists of each ship seems to consist of small groups of people from specific places. Each shipping line had shipping agents and I'm surmising that the place name grouping was organised by different shipping agents.

Passengers on the ship (a barque) named Prince George which sailed from Hamburg 8th July 1838

Kuchel Johann Georg    55    Vine Dresser    924/1 / Town of origin = Langmeil
     Anne Dorothea (Seiffert)    51                   
     Johann Samuel    23    Vine Dresser              
     Johann Friedrich    20    Vine Dresser              
     Johann Gottlieb    17    Agr. Labourer         
=========

Passengers on the ship Zebra,Captain Dirk Meinerts Hahn, from Altona 12th August, Hamburg 21st August 1838

Surname: Liebelt /Johann Christian  38  Shepherd born in Nickern,Saxony/Sachsen    
     Maria Elisabeth (Kuchel)    40                   
     Johann Gottlieb    14                   
     Johann Christoph    12                   
     Johanne Eleonore    5
======

I see that your ancestor's occupation was in the wine making industry and during my research I've accidentally learned that expert workers were much in demand by rich estate owners who actually sent out agents across Europe to "head hunt" them.  Interesting that the captain's name is also the name of the place your ancestor settled in.  I don't know whether your ancestor took out his own vines or went to work on an existing estate, but it might be fruitful to investigate. A rich man's biography is usually in history books and could give further clues.

When I looked for a place name "Langmeil" - I found that there's a place called Alsenbrück-Langmeil in the Rhineland.  The Rhineland is extremely famous for it's vineyards.  As you have already stated there's also a Langmeil in old Prussia near Brandenburg and I see that the land there is also suitable for growing vines.

Coincidentally there was a group of passengers who arrived in Australia on the ship Heerjeebhoy Rustomjee Patel, from Bremen 21st April 1845 to Port Adelaide.   This is a submitted entry and the author states he got the information fromm various places.

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/heerjeebhoyrustomjeepatel1845.shtml

Kuchel Johann Gottfried Erdmann  33    Vine-dresser / Winemaker Langmeil,Bandenburg   
     Johanne Dorothea Elizabeth (Kuchel)    34                   
     Johanne Louise    5                   
     Johanne Dorothea    4                   
     Johanne Eleonore    2                   
     Anna Rosina    inf     

the question I would be asking is, did the ship's list actually state this full place name: "Langmeil,Bandenburg", or did the author add "Brandenburg" from an online amateur family tree historian's notes?

==

[harlu]

Well there are a few differences to what I found out (which was in off a website where they quoted a book) but what you have written (re: the ship name and his occupation) is ringing a bell in the far recesses of the brain.

In our family tree, the Liebelts and Kuchels are intertwined a bit so I wonder if Maria and Johann were siblings.....

Hahndorf was named after Capt. Hahn because he helped them settle into the Hills and helped negotiate the purchase of some land of a wealthy landowner by the name of Dutton.

If he was a vine dresser and their is a Langmeil in Rhineland (which I had suggested to me by another aswell ) then I agree that the Brandenburg attachment may be a mistake.

Kuchel Johann Gottfried Erdmann  33    Vine-dresser / Winemaker Langmeil,Bandenburg   
     Johanne Dorothea Elizabeth (Kuchel)    34                   
     Johanne Louise    5                   
     Johanne Dorothea    4                   
     Johanne Eleonore    2                   
     Anna Rosina    inf     

This is Johann Georg's son and family.

[Rena]

 This is what was published in Adelaide in "The Advertiser" on 14th June 1902

<<DEATH OF AN OLD COLONIST.

Mr. Gottlieb Kuchel, who died recently at Kanmantoo, was born in Germany. He arrived in South Australia in the year 1838 by the ship Prince George, and with his parents settled at Hahndorf. Mr. Kuchel married in 1848, and for some time was engaged in agricultural pursuits. Later on he became the proprietor of the Wool Park estate, near Kanmantoo, now the property of Mr. T. Hope Murray, who uses the run for stud purposes. Mr. Kuchel, who was in his 82nd year, has left 10 children (six sons and four daughters), 70 grandchildren and one great-grandchild. The funeral took place at Callington on June 4, and a large number of the deceased's friends gathered at the graveside.>>   newspaper archive source:  http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper

I'm supposing that this family were Lutherans, solely because the Lutheran church was built by Mr Hahn in the 1830s.   The Australian church burial service record of HIS parents should give the names and residence of their parents who were left behind in Germany. this web page gives the church archive details. http://www.jaunay.com/newsletter/newsletter47.html

Have you looked on your local ancestry website at the (German) book section? 

http://search.ancestry.com/oldsearch/locality/dbpage.aspx?tp=1652381&p=3253&cj=1&netid=cj&o_xid=0000584978&o_lid=0000584978&o_sch=Affiliate+External
.
The town (Ort) directories are a mine of information and I see that there's a book of Brandenburgh church transcripts dated 1700 to 1784.

Some on the list are free to view but usually local libraries give free access under their "Library Edition" scheme.

[harlu]

Oh yes - old Lutheran family (well some of them  )

Gottlieb would have been the youngest son of Georg (or George as I have noticed in some records).

I completely forgot about Trove! Thank you so much for the reminder!!

[ChrisWilliams]

I am puzzled that you might claim an ancestral link to Johann George Kuchel (1783-1845) because all of George's descendents migrated to Australia in 1838/1845. 

This thread has introduced some falsehoods that ought not mislead their readers.  The family's 1838 migration was aboard the Prince George, and included three of his four sons.  This 1838 migration of the Old Lutherans also included the ships Bengalee, Zebra and Catherina.  Despite what some of the on-line passenger manifests might claim, the oldest son Gottfried and his family did not emigrate until 1845 aboard the Herjeebhoy Rustonjee Patel.  I have found emigration listings for Gottfried in 1838 (Prince George), 1842 (Skjold), and 1845 (Patel), but only this last one is true.

I also feel reference to the  Rhineland, rather than Brandenberg, to be misleading akin to a red herring.  The 1838 migration was under the tutelage of Angas and Pastor Kavel. The book Kavel's People by David Schubert records all the migrants' origins, and you can rest assured that Georg Kuchel and his family originated from Langmiel, Brandenberg.

Don't be deterred, however because the Kuchel family leased 240 acres from a 400-acre Section owned by the Incorporated Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (a mission arm of the Church of England), and their lease stipulated they should plant 4.5 acres of vines.  I thus conclude these grapes were grown according to Brandenberg practices and not Rhineland practices. 

[Saetro]

Many villages in South Australia were named after places in the Old Country.

Just Googling "Langmeil South Australia" would find history of that place and lead to finding that this Langmeil was close to Züllichau (actually it was within the district with the same name that surrounded that city).
State Library of South Australia has some great stuff on place too especially if you can find their Manning collection online.

Back in 1931 W Iwan wrote about those who left Silesia, Posen and the Mark of Brandenburg: "Um des glaubens Willen nach Australien".  David Schubert has translated this as "Because of their Beliefs".  This gives the names of people who applied for/received permission to leave.  And some great supporting history.  If your people may have left from these areas before 1845 it is worth consulting this book. (Has some maiden names for wives.)

Kuchels J.Georg KUCHEL and his wife Anna Dorothea nee SEIF(F)ERT had four sons.
On a slightly later ship "Zebra" 1838 came several NITSCHKE families (and more on the "Skjold" in 1841).  They descended from Johann Gottfried NITSCHKE and Johanne Dorothea nee KUCHEL who married at Kay, Kreis Züllichau in 1771.
Recent DNA testing shows a close connection between Je Dorothea NITSCHKE nee KUCHEL and J Georg KUCHEL.  Although it is too soon to know exactly what this connection was.
There may be other KUCHEL links through the distaff sides of yet other emigrants.