Author Topic: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?  (Read 7608 times)

Offline Mary Marsden

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 16 February 14 22:18 GMT (UK) »
I am still seeking evidence that Alles Orret and Katharine Green were the first and second wives of Valentine Walls. Is there a joint gravestone? Is there any source that says that Valentine was a widower when he married Katherine? Are there wills? Are there family bibles? The only records of Valentine's marriage(s) I have seen quoted in trees are the (notoriously unreliable) IGI records. Has anyone seen the original parish registers and/or bishop's transcripts? Is there DNA evidence from known descendants of Alles and Katharine?

I'd love to be convinced that Alles and Katharine were married to the same man. Evidence, please?


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Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday 20 February 14 10:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

We may be able to shed some light on that soon, as Manchester central library re-opens on 22nd March 2014. It's been a long wait for the place to get rebuilt, but i know that Valentine/ Alles Orritt marriage record is in there.

Not too sure if this will be proof enough, but at least we will have the parish record.

I think we may have to look elsewhere for the proof that the Katherine Green Valentine, and the Alles Orritt Valentine are one and the same. Remember that we are dealing with a timeframe 100 years before the first census record, or certificate of any kind, so maybe other records are the way, such as window tax, rent records, wills, or suchlike.

It seems that Alles died in 1745, yet Valentine went on to have more children in 1747, 1749,1755, and 1760.

I guess that if Alles died in 1745, and Valentine got married, and had his next child in 1747, there is a chance that he and Katherine lived at the same address. If he did, then there's your proof, although how we find a record to show his address from 1745 to 1747 i don't know.

Have you any ideas how we can find this ?

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Offline andrewalston

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 20 February 14 20:46 GMT (UK) »
Burial of Alles (nee Orret) 13 May 1749 at Blackrod (from the LPRS):
Alles w Vallintin Walles

Valentine was left with a large family - the couple had 11 children baptised, including twins in April 1749. Acquiring a stepmother for the children would have been very important, even if there was help from relatives.

The marriage to Catherine Green was at Wigan 24 September 1753.
My transcript from the film:
Valentine Whalls & Catherine Green both of Blackrod married by Mr. Edge Curate the 24th day. Bans.
The only other Valentine would have been the son of Valentine and Alice, and be only 17 years old. He went on to marry Betty Anderton in 1759. Both couples had children after this date, so Betty's husband was not the same person as Catherine's.

Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

Census information is Crown Copyright. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for details.

Offline Mary Marsden

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #30 on: Friday 28 February 14 14:49 GMT (UK) »
I agree that a stepmother would have been useful if Valentine didn't have a paid housekeeper, sisters, aunts or mother/mother-in-law around to help, but I haven't seen any reliable evidence to point conclusively to Valentine having married Catharine Green after the death of Alles.

The lack of baptisms for two Valentines is not, for me at any rate, evidence that only one man was involved. I have several ancestors on my tree for whom I haven't been able to find baptisms despite much investigation by me and by others. Some of these missing records can be accounted for by damage/destruction, which I know to have taken place in the disruptive times in  the 17th and 18th centuries (as for example occurred at Rivington Unitarian Chapel).

Do you know conclusively which of the following two Valentines here is which?

Burial: 13 Apr 1774 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Valentine Whalls -
    Abode: Blackrod
    Register: Burials 1727 - 1782, Page 97, Entry 25
    Source: LDS Film 2148001

Burial: 29 Jan 1780 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Valentine Walls -
    Abode: Blackrod
    Buried by: Richard Perryn, Rector
    Register: Burials 1772 - 1812, Page 26, Entry 12
    Source: LDS Film 1526140

Burial of Alles (nee Orret) 13 May 1749 at Blackrod (from the LPRS):
Alles w Vallintin Walles

Valentine was left with a large family - the couple had 11 children baptised, including twins in April 1749. Acquiring a stepmother for the children would have been very important, even if there was help from relatives.

On an unrelated topic: I know you are interested in the name Donbavand. Are you aware of this record? I realise it may not be of consequence but thought I'd mention it after I found it when investigating Simm ancestors.

Marriage: 2 Aug 1759 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Simm - this Parish
Jane Key - (X), this Parish
    Witness: James Bankes; William Donbavand
    Banns Read: 15 Jul 1758, 2nd: 22 Jul 1759, 3rd: 29 Jul 1759
    Married by Banns by: John Lowe Curate



Offline andrewalston

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #31 on: Friday 28 February 14 19:30 GMT (UK) »
We have no documentary evidence as to which of the Valentine Walls died when, but on the balance of probabilities, the father died first. Betty (nee Anderton) did not seem to remarry, but if her husband had died in 1774, not only would she be short of an income (eldest son John) would have been only 10) but the baptism of Betty on 15 May 1774 surely would have mentioned that she was a widow. There are so few Valentine Wallses around at any one time that we are justified in allocating an identity to the references in the records. We are very lucky not to be dealing with John Smith! Incidentally I have a John Smith who was a shoemaker in Croston; another Johns Smith was a shoemaker in Bretherton at the same time, and a third one in the parish was an Ag Lab.

Yes, I'm running a one-name study into Donbavands/Dunbabins etc, so I have trawled most of the sources now. William Donbavand was Parish Clerk for 50 years until his death in 1764, when his son, also William, took over.

Parish Clerks were regular marriage witnesses, because they would have to be present in order for the register by be extracted from the parish chest, and of course they could usually write!
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

Census information is Crown Copyright. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for details.

Offline Mary Marsden

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 28 August 18 12:03 BST (UK) »
Has any progress been made towards resolving the many puzzles surrounding the Walls families of Blackrod, Lancashire? Family Tree DNA autosomal testing is providing some very useful insights for my own line, but as I have no known Walls first cousins in the direct male line, and my only male Walls second cousins are not interested in family history, I am unable to investigate Y-DNA to enable me to trace back the origins of my great-grandfather beyond my 5g-grandfather, Valentine Walls of Blackrod. There is a Family Tree DNA Wall/Walls Y-DNA project that is producing interesting results for its members. Are there any male Walls direct descendants out there who are interesting in DNA testing?

Offline andrewalston

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 29 August 18 20:30 BST (UK) »
I keep having another look, but without success so far.

I believe that I am too distantly related to make DNA testing meaningful. My closest Walls link is my ggg grandmother (female line all the way) Arabella Walls, born 1811. She in turn is a great granddaughter of the problematic Valentine.

The best I can come up with at present is that Valentine's father was likely to be called Robert. Both he and Robert Walls, who I believe to be his brother, have their first son in the parish named Robert.

I have no documentary evidence for them being siblings, but the unusual name Arabella appears in both their families, so I think there must be some link between them.
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

Census information is Crown Copyright. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for details.

Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 12 December 18 08:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi there. There is actually a Bill Walls who lives in Hindley who is the grandson of Valentine Walls (a later Valentine), and as I recall he is a direct all male descendant of the Valentine walls you have done so much work to uncover Andrew.

I spoke to him via email a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of the only photo I have ever seen of any Valentine Walls, which I am sure you have already seen on the ancestry website Andrew

I'll see if I can dig out the communications I had with him at the time

Aside from this I still think about Valentine as I drive past the 'Valentine Walls houses' quite a lot in Hindley where as I recall multiple Valentine Walls' from different generations all lived in the same terrace at the same time and were all from the same line

Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 16 December 18 15:57 GMT (UK) »
Has any progress been made towards resolving the many puzzles surrounding the Walls families of Blackrod, Lancashire? Family Tree DNA autosomal testing is providing some very useful insights for my own line, but as I have no known Walls first cousins in the direct male line, and my only male Walls second cousins are not interested in family history, I am unable to investigate Y-DNA to enable me to trace back the origins of my great-grandfather beyond my 5g-grandfather, Valentine Walls of Blackrod. There is a Family Tree DNA Wall/Walls Y-DNA project that is producing interesting results for its members. Are there any male Walls direct descendants out there who are interesting in DNA testing?

Do you have a link for the DNA Walls project Mary? Like I already told Andrew I exchanged emails with Bill Walls in Hindley who's grandad is Valentine Walls 1883 - 1958 and Bill as far as I can make out is an all male descendant of the original Valentine who died in 1774

I did discuss the DNA stuff with him briefly but then lost touch , but I may be able to dig out his email address if you need it

Below is a photo of Valentine although not sure of where this was taken but as far as I know it's the only photo of any of the Valentine's I have ever seen