Author Topic: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?  (Read 7622 times)

Offline Radcliff

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 13 February 13 13:19 GMT (UK) »
Who is Dolly Walls
burial 1823 aged 79 years

8th May 1778
Order of filiation and maintance of William,
bastard child of John Kershaw the younger ,weaver and Dolly Whalls,single woman

Gunning County Down,Kneale Isle of Man,Riddle Tynemouth,Bibby Kendal/Bradford,Colenso Penzance/Barrow-in-Furness,Steele Corney Fell,Chapman Ely,Dawes Alfreton,Blamire Westmoreland and Ulverston
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Offline Radcliff

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 13 February 13 14:14 GMT (UK) »
I know you have researched long and hard so please forgive me if I go over old ground with you,

You seem quite sure Valentine and Robert are Blackrod born and bred,and just need something to lead you back to their parentage,

The name Walles  often mistranscribed very easily by church officials,so you are not 100% sure od what spelling to use,

The W family do seem to have been around in Blackrod for quite a long time as in
1662.16th May
Abigail Wallis alias Bannister
is baptised
child of Christophe Banister and Jane Walles,
where did these three go,did Jane and Christoph marry,or did Abigail go on to have her own children unmarried hence they take the name Wallis or Walles
Gunning County Down,Kneale Isle of Man,Riddle Tynemouth,Bibby Kendal/Bradford,Colenso Penzance/Barrow-in-Furness,Steele Corney Fell,Chapman Ely,Dawes Alfreton,Blamire Westmoreland and Ulverston
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Offline andrewalston

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 13 February 13 15:47 GMT (UK) »
I'm afraid that I'm stuck at my gggggg gf Valentine too. I know he married Alles Orret at Bolton in 1753, and Catherine Green in Wigan in 1753. St. Katherine's at Blackrod was a chapel-of-ease to St. Peter's at Bolton, but because of the distances involved, many Blackrod people used Standish or Wigan parish churches.

Valentine is a "favourite" name in the Walls family. One branch in Co. Durham was spotted as related because of the presence of one.

There are quite a few Walls in the wider area, but few records anywhere near as old as the Blackrod ones are evident. A family in Wigan with the surname "Wall" appears not to be related, so I've no claim to the ice cream and sausage empire.  :(   The surname we seek may have variable spelling, but always seems to have the trailing "s".

Familysearch comes up with an interesting suggestion - a "Valenidinus Waltz" was baptised in the Black Forest in 1695. However I can't for the life of me come up with a reason for this chap to move to Lancashire, and his father's name (Ignatius) doesn't reappear.
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

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Offline Radcliff

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 13 February 13 16:23 GMT (UK) »
Have you both discounted an Irish connection,

Valentine Wall
son of Robert Wall cant read the actual date,
year 1707
Tullow parish church Carlow
Church of Ireland,
Gunning County Down,Kneale Isle of Man,Riddle Tynemouth,Bibby Kendal/Bradford,Colenso Penzance/Barrow-in-Furness,Steele Corney Fell,Chapman Ely,Dawes Alfreton,Blamire Westmoreland and Ulverston
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Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 13 February 13 22:58 GMT (UK) »
Good grief, that was quick !

Thanks all for the input folks

Just to answer a few questions in order that the replies came...

'Ciderdrinker': Yes i have seen the Alles Orrit connection, i established a while ago that Valentine was married first to Alles, then Catherine Green later on. All in all Valentine had 14 kids between the two marriages, and i have detailed research on all of them and their descendents

miriamkinga : The Valentine Walls you mention b 1728 was the son of the Valentine Walls i am looking at...All in all there are at least 7 Valentine Walls in the tree that i know of, and around 3 in Robert's line. In fact there three Valentine Walls males lived at the same time in the same small street in Leigh near Wigan at one time, and the street came to be known as Valentine Walls houses !

heatherjulie : Well pointed out, yes this is the Valentine Walls 1700-1774 and he was indeed buried at St.Katherines in Blackrod, although i still have no idea where he was born

heatherjulie : Valenidinus Waltz is a name i am looking at currently, as i am investigating the possibility that Valentine Walls immigrated into England as one of the 'poor palatines' in 1709 to escape the strife going on due to war of succession, etc, although the list of palatine immigrants (refugees) doesn't contain his name, or any combination of Walls/Whalls/Waltz, but research is ongoing as there were other influxes prior to the main one in 1709

Radcliff  : I would love William s of William Walls of Bolton to be a part of this, as this would extend my research, but i just can't prove it, and have looked at this name many times on LAN OPC

Radcliff :Henrie i have also looked at, and his name proves that the Walls clan was in Blackrod way before 1700, but again i cannot prove that Henrie or William his father are part of the line, although it is highly likely they both are with the Blackrod/St.Katherine connection

The Alles Walls is proven to be Valentines Wife's burial in 1749, and yes she is the first wife of Valentine. As for your next point about Dolley, she was a character, and had 3 or 4 kids out of wedlock, she is in the tree already and is part of the descendant line.

Your point about being sure that Valentine and Robert being Blackrod born and bred is the big question, i have no proof that either brother was born in Blackrod, the first time they appear on the record is Robert's first childs baptism Agnis Walls 1727-1754, and they lived in Millgate, with Roberts wife Elizabeth (surname unknown, marriage date unknown). Valentine appears on his marriage day to Alles Orritt married in Bolton-Le-Moors, so Robert appears in 1727, and Valentine in 1724, no baptism for either in the entire country prior to these dates, we just have estimates

In Blackrod there were other Walls such as Abigail, and Jane, but again no proven connection to either line.

andrewalston : You are my hero, We have spoken many times via email, and your gedcom file on roots web has been of massive help, although the team have been quietly digging since last we spoke, and we have uncovered another line of Walls in Blackrod at the same time, the earliest member was John Walls born in 1755, who's descendants formed the Walls in the Hindley,Ince, and Weshoughton strands including Parnell Walls (Nee Isherwood). I think Valentine, Robert, and John have a common ancestor. On a different note, Robert lived in Wigan (Millgate, and his occupation was 'taylor), so maybe i'll join you for a sausage and ice cream lunch quite soon !

The reason i know that they were brothers is because they appeared as witnesses at each others kids baptisms and marriages, and Robert lived in Blackrod for a brief time. In fact the Walls clan were professional witnesses, and appeared at multiple unrelated marriages, baptisms and the like.

Radcliff : I spotted the Irish connection very recently, and have the baptism record. This is my current line of research, as the poor palatines entered the UK into Chester the main port at that time, then were transferred into Chester by wagons. Some stayed, most went on to Ireland, where some disembarked, and the majority went to America....

I am currently in contact with the Walls DNA project, who have proven a DNA link match between Ireland Walls,:

Subgroup: Group VII
Name: Not Disclosed
Most Distant Ancestor: Walter DeVal Wall, b1505 d1570
Marker Location: Eyrecourt county, Galway, Ireland
Lat, Lng: (52.3988953, -8.573311)

And English Walls:

Subgroup: Group VII
Name: Not Disclosed
Most Distant Ancestor: Mark Wall, 1690, 1740.
Marker Location: Stanhope, Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK
Lat, Lng: (54.7473831, -2.0067153)

The De Vall name also seems like a connection with Wall.

So loads of possible angles, and speculation, but the question remains, where did Valentine Walls and his brother Robert come from ?

Thanks for all the input folks, its greatly appreciated











 


Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 14 February 13 20:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi Prouty & welcome to Rootschat,

Have you come across the following website: -

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/l/a/Carole-A-Slattery/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-Index.html

There's a Valentine but born 1728 but no sign of Robert.



Maria  :)

Hi Miriamkinga

I have looked at Carole's site, and i think that Carole just made a mistake with Valentine Walls at the start of her Walls lineage, as she has only put Catherine Green as Valentine's wife, whereas Catherine is really Valentine's second wife.

Valentine's first wife was Alles Orritt, and he married her in about 1724, and their first child was Robert Walls in 1726

Carole has Valentine as estimated to be born in 1728, which wouldn't be possible if his first son was born in 1726.

We know that the marriage between Valentine and Alles took place on 6th April 1724 at Bolton-Le-Moors, but no records before this, but we can safely assume he was 16 to 18 on his marriage date, (but that's only a rough guess)

If he was 18, that makes his birth year 1706, or 1708 if he married at 16.

That's our dead end :)

Best wishes

Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 16 February 13 20:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

Ok, so this is outside the box, but bear with me.

As we know, parish register keepers were not great at spelling, and the further you go back, the worse they were.

Having that in mind, we also know that the Walls family parish records in Lancashire had different spellings...

Firstly in the early 1700's records when it mentioned Robert and Valentines children, it was Whall, Whalle, and Whale

Then later on in the late 1700's it became Walls, Whalles, and even Walles

It only became 'Walls' consistently in the early 1800's

But what about in the 1600's where the spelling would be more phonetically how it sounds ?  I went through every combination of spelling the word 'Walls', but no luck, and this took months, but then today i thought really outside of the box....,

How do you spell 'Wall(s)' without using a 'W'

Hualgh maybe ?  The spelling sounds like Whall without a W...,



Baptism: 4 Sep 1607 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Valentine Halgh of Boulton
b. of Robert Halgh and Margerett Sharples
both of Boulton

Baptism: 17 Jun 1611 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Robert Halgh of Boulton s. of Robert

Baptism: 13 Feb 1639 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Margrett Halgh b: d. of Vallentyne
et Sarah Smetherst de Farnworth

Burial: 16 Nov 1646 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
Infans Vallentynes Haulgh of Middle Hulton

Baptism: 17 Nov 1650 St Mary, Deane, Lancashire, England
Georgius f. Valentinij Halughe de Middle Hulton

Baptism: 20 Mar 1652 St Mary, Deane, Lancashire, England
Johanes f. Valentinij Haulgh de Middle Hulton


I travel past middle Hulton every day, as its the only way from where i live to Bolton..., these days it is called little Hulton, and little Hulton back then im sure it would have been split into lower Hulton, middle Hulton, and what is even now 'Over Hulton'

OUR Valentine was also married at Bolton-Le-Moors, and we already know that some Walls baptisms, marriages, and deaths took place in Deane, which is also a village past Little Hulton into Bolton...,I also drive through Deane every day.

Let me know your thoughts on this theory

Offline Radcliff

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 16 February 13 21:52 GMT (UK) »
I looked at that baptism myself,
but thought you wouldnt be interested,
myself I do believe strongly in phonetics,just like Chinese whispers ,
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Offline Prouty99

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Re: Valentine Walls (Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan) where did you come from ?
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 17 February 13 00:42 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the reply

The phonetics thing is an interesting area of research, although its a bit hit and miss really

Do you think that he just wasn't baptised at all ?  Would that be common back then ?

I was also looking at the Preston/Chingle Hall 'Wall' family as a link between the two lines, as the plague hit Preston around the mid to late 1600's, so if someone was born mid journey then the baptism just wouldn't be registered