Francis Spencer sen (1820) and Francis Spencer jun (1846), Sutton in Ashfield

[Annechan]

My great grandfather Wrighthall Spencer was the son of a Francis Spencer. Was the father Francis Spencer jun??

Wrighthall was born in Balbriggan, north of Dublin, in 1866, mother Mary Hardding / Hardy.  The same couple had another son Robert in 1870, who remained in Balbriggan.

In the 1861 census Francis sen is living in Quarry Yard, Sutton, with wife Caroline and six children including Francis jun. I cannot find the family in 1871, except perhaps for a son William then aged 31.  The mother may have died in 1862, or this could be the death of a daughter born in 1860.

Several FWKs  moved from Sutton to Balbriggan around 1870, including Arthur (born 1832), a brother of Francis sen. Did Francis sen and/or jun move there as well?

One of Francis sen’s other brothers, christened in 1824, was called Wright Hall, which encouraged my supposition; I have found nothing about him and assume he died at a young age.

There is also a Francis Spencer born in England (possibly Shardlow registration district 1843 or 1846) who married Ellen Matilda Appleyard in Balbriggan in 1865; they had lots of children, and were still there in 1911.  It seems possible but unlikely that this is the same Francis as Wrighthall and Robert’s father.

I would be so grateful for any information about either Francis; I have tried both English and Irish records, but without success, not even a convincing death for either.  There is a record of probable Mary in Balbriggan in 1901 Census, and a Dublin cemetery entry for 1906 death, but the burial appears to relate to a different family.

[CaroleW]

Mother Caroline Spencer died in Sutton in Ashfield Notts in 1862 aged 41 and was buried 16.5.1862

[larkspur]

Baptism Sutton in Ashfield
1-2-1824 Wright Hall Spencer son of Samuel and Mary father a FWK.

Burial's Sutton in Ashfield
18-8-1829 Wright Spencer abode Sutton aged 5.
7-7-1867 Francis Spencer abode Forest St aged 72.

[larkspur]

Marriage Sutton in Ashfield
11-4-1841 Francis Spencer and Caroline Cassoday

[larkspur]

Baptism Sutton in A
17-12-1820 Francis son of Samuel and Mary Spencer, father a FWK, there are 9 children baptised for these parents at Sutton.
This marriage fits well
Sutton in A
7-10-1816 Samuel Spencer and Mary Hall.

[Annechan]

Thank you so much, CaroleW and Larkspur, for all that extra information.  I have used Freereg, Freebmd and censuses to try to piece together a picture of the families, but pre-1865 deaths are difficult, and that marriage seems to be missing from Freebmd.

The Francis Spencer who died in 1867 seems likely to be the Francis aged 68 in the 1861 census, born Stoney Haughton, Derbys and living in Sutton.  So did Francis sen (and his children, including Francis jun) move to Balbriggan with his brother Arthur?

I would be so grateful for any sightings of the family after 1862.   

[lynnsellers1956]

Samuel Spencer b-1796 d-8-29-1860 and wife Mary Hall, had 11 kids
William b-1817-1822,George b- 1818-1822, Francis Sr  b-1820, George b-1822, Wright Hall b-1824 to 1829, Dorothy b-1826-1833, Nathan b-1828-1831, Simeon b-1830-1834, Arthur b-1833, William b-1837 and Eliza b-1844. All were born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England.

Francis Sr b- 1820 was born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England and married on April 11,1841 to Caroline Cassoday born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England. also married in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England . They had 6 kids
Thomas b-1839, William b- 1842, Sarah Ann b-1844, Francis Jr b- 1845, Mary b-1849 and Caroline b-1861

Francis Jr, b- 1845 was born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England, married on Oct 23, 1865 to Ellen Matilda Appleyard, my (2nd) Great Grandmother who was born in Dublin, Ireland. They had 12 kids
Sarah Anne b-1866, Francis Henry b-1868 - 1868, unknown Spencer b- 1869-1869, Caroline Mary b-1871 -1948, Hariet Eliza b- 1873-1874, Gertrude b-1874-1874, Eliza b-1875- died before 1911, Henrietta b- 1877, William b-1880, Eliza Letitia (my Great Grandmother) b- 1883-1928, Robert Herbert b-1885 and finally (Female)  Hamilton Spencer b-1879 died before 1911.

I am not sure where the link for Wright Hall Spencer born Sept 6, 1866 to Mary Hardding and Francis Spencer fits in. But since Francis Sr had a brother with the name Wright Hall, I thought with this information you may find what you are looking for since you asked for any info on either Francis Spencer's.

[Annechan]

Thank you, lynnsellers, for all that info. It seems we are distantly related, both descended from Francis b. 1820.

I attach my version of the families of Samuel Spencer and Mary Hall and of Francis Spencer (1820) and Caroline Cassoday, adding some of your info to what I already knew. Perhaps you could let me know if you find any mistakes. I have the birth and marriage certificates of Francis b1846, and could scan you copies if you wanted.

As you say, the unusual name makes it highly likely that Wrighthall born 1866 is part of this family.  I first assumed that Francis b1846 in Sutton was Wrighthall’s father, but a cold week going round Dublin Record Offices and Libraries convinced me that it was Francis b1846 who married Ellen Matilda Appleyard.  My latest supposition is that Francis b 1820 was Wrighthall’s father.  The Valuation office and baptism records showed there were two Francis/Frank Spencers in Balbriggan from the 1870s to the end of the century. One, I believe was Francis b1846 living in Skerries St/Hampton St,; the other was living in Drogheda St, which Wrighhall and Robert’s parents gave as their address when the 2 boys were baptised together in 1876.

It seems as though Francis b1820 may have moved to Balbriggan after the death of his first wife. His widowed brothers Arthur and William also came to Balbriggan and  both appear to have married Irish girls and had some children in Ireland before moving back to England.

I didn’t notice any Hardys / Harddings in Balbriggan records, so perhaps Francis and Mary were living together before going to Ireland.  I haven’t found a marriage in either Ireland or England, so have no idea of Mary’s age or father’s name. If she was a few years younger than Francis, her age would fit with having children in 1866 and 1870 but (as far as I know) no more.  Wrighthall’s brother Robert emigrated to Los Angeles Co in 1919, with his Irish wife and son, and the 1920 American census says Robert’s mother and father were both English.           

The only likely death I have found for Francis b1820 is Dec Q 1900, aged 81, in Leicester, so I may try buying this certificate, unless you have found a better match.

Does all this sound like a Catherine Cookson novel?

[lynnsellers1956]

yes it looks like we are related. Thank you so much for the attachments you sent, and the answer is yes I would like any documents you would be willing to share. I see you have been to Dublin. Do you live in that area or just vacation? I am Leaving tomorrow for 6 weeks. I compared what I have to what you sent and I can tell you I got Ellen Matilda Appleyard & Francis Spencer marriage info from familysearch.org. It also has information on her kids. I will be able to get your messages while I am away. It is posted on Ancestry and that has certificates and pictures ect...
Thanks again
I LOVE Catherine Cookson's Novels !!!!!!!!!