Ellen Mullen/Mullins

[noland01]

After getting so much help here anytime I have posted (esp. Shanew147) decided to chance my arm one last time!
Having tried this on Ancestry,RootsIreland,Familysearch and a few more places decided to let the real experts have a go!

The person I am looking for help on is Ellen Mullen/Mullins.
The facts(well as much as I know)

Ellen Mullen/Mullins was married to Timothy Byrne (abt.1849- 26th Oct. 1909) on 16th April 1872 in Leighlinbridge Carlow.
They had 8 children that I know of; John(1873-1905) Patrick(1875-1951) James(1878-1949) Michael(1880-?) Mary(1882-1951) Anne(1885-1972) Maggie(1887-1939) Ellen(1889-1968).
She lived all her married life in Seskin Carlow and died there Feb. 1920.

Her birthday was 29th December(according to an entry in her daughters diary "had a mass said on mothers birthday ")
Born about 1852 (using census)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Rathornan/Seskin_lower/1043488/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Rathornan/Seskin_Lower/314484/

On the Parish register her address on marriage is given as Mensal Lodge ,Old Leighlin, Carlow.
I assume that she was working there as the family that owned it then are still there and definitley no relation.Was wondering if she was from Carlow would she not have given her home address on marriage or even home parish?

Marriage witnesses and baptismal sponsors give no real clues.
Any and all searches that I have tried have came up with no stand out matches.Know that she used both Mullen and Mullins as maiden name.

Now the long shot!
Her son Patrick(O)Byrne died in Waterford in 1951 and the mourners included a Mr and Mrs Ml Dower Clonmel as cousins of the deceased.From the paper;

"The remains were received at the Cathedral by Rev. W. Hallinan, Rev. P. Power officiating at the graveside.
The chief mourners included Mrs Margt. O'Byrne (widow), Mr Timothy O'Byrne (son), Mr Denis Nolan (nephew), Mr & Mrs ML Dower and Mr David O'Rourke Clonmel (cousins). "

Know that Dowers were related (long story ) to Patrick Byrne but nobody knows exactly how .The above mentioned Michael Dower and David O Rourke are cousins of one another .This is the same family in 1911.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Inishlounaght/Rathkeevin/908650/

I assume it was through Patrick Byrnes mother ie Ellen Mullins  and not his father that the relationship existed but maybe wildly off the mark.Dower being such an unusual name said this might be worth a try.

Looking for fresh angle etc to try .Any questions please ask.

Thanks for reading.

Denis.

Unsure if this should be in a specific county forum or not.

[shanew147]

You really need a location i.e. parish, or town for your Mullens to search for Ellen's baptism. The only major online source for Carlow parish records (IrishGenealogy) has just Church of Ireland records at the moment, so you would need to check parish films in the National Library, LDS etc.

Do you have a civil marriage cert for Ellen and  Timothy  ?

This should show her father's name and occupation, which might help locate him on Griffiths, or the Tithe's...



Shane

[shanew147]

....
On the Parish register her address on marriage is given as Mensal Lodge ,Old Leighlin, Carlow.
I assume that she was working there as the family that owned it then are still there and definitley no relation.Was wondering if she was from Carlow would she not have given her home address on marriage or even home parish?
...

marriage records (civil & parish) usually show current addresses for the bride & groom, which may not be their place of birth.

If the bride and or groom originated from a separate parish and a letter of freedom was required the there is sometimes a note about this on the parish register - generally next to the baptism record (i.e. in the 'home parish'), but sometimes on the corresponding marriage also.


Shane

[shanew147]

not that many Mullen/Mullin listings on Griffth's Valuation - most for this area dated around 1852, so around the right time for Ellen's family.

  Patrick Mullen, Feamore townland, Oldleighlin civil parish
  Henry Mullen, Raheenwood townland, Oldleighlin civil parish
  Patrick Mullen, Ridge townland, Oldleighlin civil parish
  George Mullins, Tullowbeg St., Tullow, Fenagh civil parish
  Mary Mullen, Kilcarrick St., Bagnalstown, Dunlecky civil parish
  Patrick Mullins, Fair Green, Bagnalstown, Dunlecky civil parish
  Honoria Mullins, Coolasnaghta townland, Fenagh civil parish
  Richard Mullen, Kilgraney townland, Lorum civil parish
 
  see : Griffith's - Mull*, Co. Carlow  (askaboutireland.ie)

A little over 20 years earlier, the The Tithe's also show several Mullens/Mullins :

  Daniel Mullens, Barret's Sq. Bagnalstown
  Henry Mullin, Oldleighlin
  Patt Mullin, Oldleighlin
  Richard Mullin, Drumcashel
  M Mullins, Ballyellin
  Simon Mullins, Coolsnaghta
  Patrick Mullins, Drumderry

see : Tithe  - Mull*n*, Co. Carlow  (National Archives)

some of those Tithe records seem to be earlier references to families listed  on Griffith's - e.g. those at Coolsnaghta and Bagnalstown.  (note the Tithe records mainly covered agricultural property, and there were many exemptions - so not all property is listed)


Shane

[noland01]

Thanks again

Saw those Mullens,Old Leighlin on Griffiths and thought they might be a likely match.
That would be the same RC parish as where she was married ie Leighlinbridge.
Seskin,the Ridge Old Leighlin and Leighlinbridge are in the same parish and general ares.
Could be the answer because as far as I know there were no letters of freedom mentioned with the marriage records. I know that the name Mullen is not in that area anymore .Never heard anyone in the family mention that area as somewhere we had (have )relations and they(my family)were pretty good at that sort of thing!!
Must go back and look at the Dower and general Tipp. connection sometime.

On a related but different note;is it transcription errors or did people use so many different versions of their names at the time?Find it to be a tad annoying at times!!

The above woman variously was, on official documents
Ellen Mullen
Ellen Mullins
Eliza Mullen
Eliza Mullins
Her daughter was baptised Ellen Mary Byrne and was;
Ellen Byrne (census and marriage)
Ellen O Byrne (original passport)
Eileen Maria Byrne (passport again)
Eileen Mary O Byrne.

[shanew147]

spelling of surnames was not standardized - so all those Mullen, Mullin, Mullan, Mullins and even McMullen, and the O'Byrne/Byrne/Beirne etc, relate to the same two basic surnames.



S.

[noland01]

Ok just coming back to this now.
Have looked at the original parish register in Leighlinbridge and it gives just groom and brides names plus their respective addresses ie Seskin Leighlin and Mensal Lodge Old Leighlin.Witnesses are a James Byrne (brother of groom am almost certain) and Cath. McCardle (surname to be found locally).
No mention of parents,letters of freedom etc etc.

Now for the bit where I ask ;does it look likely,possible or off the wall

Found a David O Rourke born Clonmel 1910 with mother nee Dower so assume that is where the people mentioned in the obit. in my first post are related.

Also on Rootsireland got just one hit for a Dower Mullins wedding;Patrick Dower married Catherine Mullins in Kill Co. Waterford in 1863.
A Patrick Dower born 1869 Kilsheelan Civil District son of Patrick and Catherine Dower(no maiden name given)
An Ellen Dower born 1874 Marfield Clonmel daughter of a Patrick Dower.
A Mary Dower born 1867 Marfield Clonmel as above.
A William Dower born 1870 as above.
A Michael Dower born 1864 son of a Patrick Dower born Cashel Civil District.

The above are the only ones on the site to look remotely relevant.
Am running out of free searches so looks like I may invest a few bob to make progress.

Does it look worthwhile to get a few records or am I just trying to support a few wild guesses.

[shanew147]

no harm in following up those to see if you can prove they are the family of the cousins mentioned earlier, but there may not be enough details in earlier records to do this conclusively. Certainly the right names and area..

Unfortunately that Dower/Mullins marriage is just before the start of civil records so will possibly not include father's details, but the names of witnesses and places of residences might help. Probably the best way to prove links would be back through civil marriages and births if possible. Problem with Carlow RC records is that almost none of the RC parish records are online at the moment, so there could be other Mullins/Dowers connections in registers and microfilms..but not online..