Author Topic: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s  (Read 55202 times)

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #27 on: Monday 15 April 13 18:10 BST (UK) »
Oh wow, things are definitely spicing up!  I think we're getting warmer! 

How about this:

1871 Census - William Coutts, Jnr. (eldest son of my William & the mysterious Sarah) is listed as being born in Craignish, Argyllshire!  Not Greenock!   

So somebody lied on the 1851 census?!  :o

In 1871 William, Jr. is aged approx. 35 (i.e birth year abt. 1836), living in the civil parish of St. Vigeans, in the quoad sacra parish of Inverbrothock, at Fergus Square with his mother, Sarah Allardice, aged 55 (nee Douglas - she remarried in 1855, aged approx. 40).  Also living in the house is the step-father James Allardice (aged 75), a 10-year-old grandchild of Sarah's - Alex Coutts, and another grandson, William, aged 8.   

Sarah Allardice (ex Coutts, nee Douglas) died not long after the 1871 census - the census was taken on 2/4/1871 and Sarah died on 16th June that year (of arthritis and pulmonitis or pneumonitis).  The death was reported by her son, Alexander Coutts, of 10 Baking Yard - that's my g-g grandfather. 

So ... it looks like my William Coutts, Snr. for some reason travelled from the Dundee area to Craignish in the mid-1830s, met Sarah there (where she gave birth to their first son).  Then they moved to Greenock, where the 2nd son was born (Alexander).  We know that they were living separately in 1841; by that time Sarah was already back in Arbroath on Keptie Street. 

I'm still exploring the McLarty connections, but it's looking good!  If Sarah Douglas / Coutts / Allardice is the same person as Sarah McLarty, then she must have been a lot older than my William Coutts.  The doctor who signed Sarah Allardice's death cert. (William Monne, M.D.) has her age at 55 in 1871, but if she was giving birth in 1803 (to Mary McLarty) then she must have been in her eighties.   ???

What a detective story! 



Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #28 on: Monday 15 April 13 21:03 BST (UK) »
Hi Fide,
There are too many Williams, Alexanders and Sarahs in this story! ;D ;D

Just to clear up - I think the Mary Mclarty born 1803 to Alexander Mclarty and Sarah Douglas is the sister  of Sarah Coutts in Arbroath.
I think the McLarty family at Craignish was probably a large family and we only can find some of the births on Familysearch.
When Alexander Mclarty died, his widow reverted to her maiden name (if she ever used Mclarty in the first place, as many Scots women of this era kept their own name after marriage). Therefore on 1841 Census she is recorded as Douglas. Perhaps if her father had died before she married, young Sarah also for some reason used her mothers name. Of course all this is supposition :D.
Either the entire Mclarty clan moved to Greenock around 1836, or perhaps William And Sarah Coutts followed her sister Mary and her Husband David Clark to the town. More supposition???

Certainly good news that William jnr has Craignish as his place of birth. That ties him to the area!

So Sarah jnr. could have been born circa 1816.

Now I know Sarah gave the name Alexander Douglas as her father and Sarah Campbell as her mother when she got married to James Allardice but maybe she got the names wrong.

Then when she died in 1871 the informant of her death (one of the family?) would give the names from the wedding cert. or the names they'd been told by Sarah.

Again a lot of this is my vivid imagination. Could be true....but??

Keep  investigating,
Looby




Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 18 April 13 12:26 BST (UK) »
I can't find baby Isabel of Freecen  :(.  Could Isabel be Ann ??
I am now leaning towards Sarah McLarty and Sarah Douglas being one and the same.
William and Sarah Coutts have a daughter Agnes aged 6 in 1851 Census meaning a year of birth 1844/1845. Could she be Agnes Wanlass Coutts??

Baby Isabel is on FamilySearch, baptised 7th December 1840 at St. Vigeans - daughter of one William Coutts & Sarah McLarty.  Assuming she was born in December, this baby would have been 6 months old on the June 1841 census.  'Our' Ann is 10 months old on the census.  Unless the mother's maths was just really bad, but I suspect Ann and Isobel are different girls. 

Both Isabel & Ann are off the radar after 1841.  Three of Sarah's children died before 1855, according to the marriage cert of Sarah Douglas & James Allardice.  The 3 that died were probably Ann (missing from the household on the 1851 census), Mary (christened 27/12/1847, aged 3 on the 1851 census) and a 6th child - name uncertain.  I'm thinking the 6th child might be Isabel, which reinforces the Sarah McLarty = Sarah Douglas theory. 

I've been wondering about Agnes Wanlass Coutts as well.  I can't find any other birth cert for an Agnes born of a William Coutts & Sarah around 1844/5.  So this is pointing more and more towards Sarah McLarty being the same person as Sarah Douglas Coutts. 

However, just to confuse things, there were two Agnes Couttses living in Arbroath around the same time!  One married William Livingston in 1865.  The other one married George Paterson in 1863.  So the two Agneses were probably around the same age, maybe cousins.

The Agnes who married into the Livingston(e)s is the daughter of our William & Sarah.  I have her death cert.  Feb 1889 at Arbroath, aged 42 (which puts her birth year at 1847).  Father:  William Coutts, a flaxdresser (deceased).  Mother:  Sarah Coutts nee Douglas (deceased). 

So, is this Agnes the same as Agnes Wanlass Coutts (daughter of Sarah McLarty), or is Agnes Wanlass Coutts the one who marries Paterson?   :-\

I might have to look into the Paterson marriage & offspring, which might rule out (or confirm) the Wanlass girl. 

Wanlass means luckless!  That's how I'm feeling at the moment!   ;D

Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 18 April 13 14:31 BST (UK) »
I said the 6th child might be Isabel.  Sorry, I forgot that Isabel was born around December 1840, and Sarah Douglas Coutts had given birth to Ann about 3 months earlier, therefore cannot possibly be the same mother, as you helpfully pointed out earlier, Looby. 

Back to the drawing board!  *Sigh!*   

Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe


Offline loobylooayr

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 18 April 13 22:57 BST (UK) »
Hi Fide,
Have you found the births/christenings of -
William, Alexander, Ann, Agnes and Mary Coutts? I wasn't sure from previous posts if you'd found them all with William Coutts and Sarah Douglas as their parents.
Strange about Isabel and Ann??  Obviously Isabel Coutts died in infancy as I cannot find her on the 1841 Census (unless for some reason she was missed!)
Out of the 5 children above only 3 children survived to adulthood -William, Alexander( your gg granddad) and Agnes? Did only Alexander and Agnes marry?
Sorry firing questions just trying to think of some other avenue to try to solve your question :D.

I'm still leaning towards Sarah Douglas and Sarah Mclarty being the same lady...I could well be wrong :( - and it doesn't explain the mystery of 2 babies born in 1840  :( - but I just feel that Sarah has been swapping between her father and mother's names.

Have you checked the Census 1841 entry for the William Coutts residing in Greenock. Who is he living with?

The drawing board has a lot on it ;D. Keep smiling ;D

Looby

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #32 on: Friday 19 April 13 10:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Looby

I have the christening for Mary Coutts - 27/12/1847 at St. Vigeans, Arbroath - which firmly identifies William Coutts, at that time a weaver, and Sarah Douglas as the parents.  Can't find the christenings or birth registrations for William, Alexander and Ann; we only know their approximate birth years and links to William & Sarah from the censuses.  The only birth reg I can find for any Agnes Coutts b. circa 1844 in Arbroath is the Wanlass girl - daughter of a William Coutts & Sarah McLarty.  There's also the mysterious 6th child, name unknown. 

Out of the 6 children, yes, the three that survived to adulthood were William, Alexander, and Agnes.  They all married and had offspring.
 - William Coutts (Jnr) m. Lydia Baird, 1859 - 5 children
 - Alexander Coutts m. Jessie Birrel McKay, 1841 - 5 children [my line]
 - Agnes Coutts m. William Livingston, 1865 - 5 children

Yes, I have looked at the 1841 Census for William Coutts, Snr. at Greenock.  It has him aged 25 at the time, a flax dresser.  It looks like he's living in a boarding house or poorhouse at The Vennel with various men, women and children who are not obviously related to William:  one Margaret Duffy (35), Susan Docherty (20) - a dressmaker, James Docherty (10), Dennis Bannagan (45) - a merchant, Peter Pullan (30) - a flax dresser, and William Eddie (20), also a flax dresser.  The first 5 people are Irish.  I'm guessing our William knew the other 2 flaxdressers at work. 

We know that at this time Sarah Douglas (Coutts) is in Arbroath on Keptie St. with William Jr., Alexander, Ann, and somebody else's child - Margaret Duncan (aged 10). 

I wondered if this Duncan girl might yield a clue to a relative - a possible sister of William's.  I found christenings for 2 Margaret Duncans at St. Vigeans, one in 1830, the other in 1831, but there are no Couttses among these children's mothers. 

We know that Alexander Coutts was born in Greenock, and William Jr. might have been too, although a later census ties him to Craignish.  William Snr. might have had work contacts there in the flax industry.  In the 1840s the port at Greenock was already an established and thriving trading point, importing and exporting with the Americas.  1841 also saw the opening of a railway station at Greenock, providing fast links from Glasgow to the coast. 

What puzzles me is if Craignish was the real birthplace for William Jr (according to the 1871 census), and that's where William Snr. and Sarah first met, why would the young William Snr. go there in the first place from the Dundee area?  Craignish was a remote, sparsely populated peninsula; there couldn't have been many work opportunities for the poor.  In 1841 the population of the village was 873!  The working classes were leaving it, not going to it.  It doesn't make sense for William to travel there.  The only rather spurious link is that Sarah Douglas's father was a tailor.  So perhaps William knew the dad from before somehow.  Or they were linked in some way through the textile business.  All conjecture. 

I can't find the death cert for William Jnr.  Wondering if that might have any clues, e.g. his mother Sarah's full name.  I agree with you that it does look highly likely Sarah Douglas is Sarah McLarty, although the concurrent pregnancies of Isabel and Ann are problematic.  Could there be 2 Sarah McLarties in Arbroath?!!   :o

I'm also leaning towards William Snr. being the son of Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith as both his sons named their eldest sons Alexander.  There are no Isabels among the female grandchildren, but then girls were usually named after the mother's line. 

It's not very concrete, I know.  Still digging!   ;D

Thanks for all your help, Looby. 

 

Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #33 on: Friday 19 April 13 22:47 BST (UK) »
I was hoping William's household companions at Greenock  might hold a clue (other family members/people with names that pop up later ???) . But it was not to be!

Had a few credits left on SP -tried to find the Statutary Death of Sarah Douglas/Mclarty of Craignish Argyll - the woman listed below
1841 Census Craignish Argyll

Sarah Douglas    age 60
Alexander Clark age 10
Sarah Clark age 8

And Bingo! Sarah died in the best year ever 1855, the year registration started and lots of details were collected! Date of death April 21th 1855
 She is registered as-
Sarah Douglas aged 79 born (according to her children) Kilmartin Argyll
Her Father Peter Douglas (dec) Her Mother Mary Campbell (there is something written above the mother's name I can't decipher)
Married Alexander McLarty - occ. Tailor
Children in order of birth and ages :
1st Mary 50 years   2nd Donald? 48 years   3rd Duncan 46 years  4th Sarah 43 years
5th Alex 37 years
died April 21st 1855 at 12hr night at *undecipherable* ??? Craignish.
Cause of Death- a small bone which stuck in the *esophagus* (not clear)
Informant of Death - Mary Clark (I was really really hoping it would be Sarah Coutts/Allardice ;D).
 
If daughter Sarah was 43 in 1855 this gives her a date of birth of 1812. Bear in mind it would be Mary Clark who probably supplied the info.

Hope this brings you a bit closer. Still doesn't solve William's parentage :(

Looby

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 20 April 13 15:21 BST (UK) »
AHA!  You've made my day, Looby!   ;D

Thank you SO much for using your credits on SP for me.   You've made a phenomenal breakthrough.  :-*

Your info confirms the details on Sarah Coutts/Allardice's death cert (1871), which has her mother as Sarah Douglas, nee Campbell, and father as Alexander Douglas.  So Sarah Coutts's maternal grandmother was Mary Campbell and maternal grandfather was Peter Douglas, hence Sarah Coutts's 3rd daughter was named Mary!

If Sarah's dad, Alexander 'Douglas' is actually Alexander McLarty, the tailor,  Sarah Douglas, wife of William Coutts is Sarah McLarty, which means that Agnes Wanlass Coutts christened 1844 is the same Agnes who's in the house in 1851, aged 6, and baby Isabel, baptised 1840, is either the 6th child or the same child as baby Ann.  I can accept that the age given for baby Ann on the 1841 census is probably inaccurate.  The main thing is that we now have the family for Sarah Douglas/McLarty/Coutts/Allardice!   :D

Wow, what progress.  Thanks to you, Looby.   

Why Wanlass as a middle name for Agnes though?  It seems a bit random.  None of her 4 known siblings were given this name.  I'm wondering if Wanlass might be a clue into William Coutts's parents, possibly. 

It makes sense that Mary Clark was the informant of her mother's death in Craignish, 1855.  Mary was the eldest child, and besides, Sarah is miles away at the time, in Arbroath.  It's interesting that the mother died in April, and daughter Sarah remarried in June the same year (to James Allardice).  Hmm...  seems like an odd thing to do if you're in mourning.  Would Sarah in Arbroath have even known about her mother's death?  She probably could not read, so a letter might have been pointless. 

One also wonders why daughter Sarah kept changing her surname on official registers between Douglas and McLarty.  Mysterious. 

However, there are now lots of data for our Sarah's line, and her full name, which is amazing. 

Her birth year remains a bit murky.  Her 1871 death cert has her at 55, i.e. b. 1816.  The 1861 census has her at 46 (b. 1815).  The 1855 marriage cert (to Allardice) has her at 40 (b. 1815).  The 1851 census has her as 38 (b. 1813).  And her elder sister supplied Sarah's birth year as 1812!  So we might have to just say 1812-1816!  That's good enough for me. 

I'm off to download that death cert for Sarah Douglas, Snr.  My new great-great-great-great granny!  Happy me!   8)

Have a great weekend, Looby.   :-*







Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 20 April 13 21:42 BST (UK) »
Delighted to have been able to help, Fide.

Looking again at the entry in the register, I can see that I made an error .
Sarah Douglas was born in Kilmartin and lived in the district 'from childhood' - I  read it as 'from children', and thought her children had provided the info of place of birth. :-[

I have also studied the words again scrawled above Mary Campbell's name and still can't make them out. I wondered if perhaps it was yet another name!! Then I wondered if it meant that Mary Campbell and Peter Douglas were not married. But I cannot decipher it.