William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s

[loobylooayr]

Hi again,
Just remember that ages given on Censuses especially 1841 are not always accurate.
The William Coutts who gives his birthplace as Scotland and registered in Newcastle during 1841 Census may have rounded his age up from 37 to 40. Most people on that Census did round up or round down.
As for career change well anything is possible, although it does seem a bit unlikely .

I'll try and investigate a bit more

Looby

[Gali]

I see from the 1851 census that the eldest children of William and Sarah Coutts were both born in Greenock.  There is a William Coutts on 1841 census living on The Vennel, Greenock, born 1816, Scotland, occupation Flax Dresser.  Of course no way of knowing if it is 'your man'.

Re the William Coutts died 1852 born Barry, occupation Tanner ... I think this guy was married to Ann Skae ... living in Arbroath, West Grimsby on 1851 census, Arbroath, Lady Loan on 1841 ... looks as if his wife was re-married by 1861 census to a David Simpson. 

[loobylooayr]

Well at least we're eliminating the William Coutts who aren't your man!
Certainly looks like the tanner is living with Anne Skea with two young daughters in Lady Loan Arbroath in 1841 as Gali has already posted so he is out of the running.
And the other William (with Luisa) is too young.
The William in Greenock in 1841 (who I can't find on freecen ) found by Gali could be a good bet if children of the couple are being born there in the 1840's. You would need to see if you could find an OPR of the Greenock birth to confirm parents names - I had no joy on familysearch.

There are burial records of the St.Vigeans and Arbroath area for 1825 -1854 which can be searched at Angus Archives  in person, not online. Maybe you would find William Coutts death recorded there. I don't live anywhere near Angus so I can't oblige by doing a look-up I'm afraid.

Looby

[Gali]

Hi Looby, can't see that info for William Coutts in Greenock in 1841 on Freecen earlier (strange ... as I had thought that Freecen 1841 was complete for Scotland - perhaps I am doing something wrong) ... but he's on the original one via SP, GROS data 564/00 025/00 009

Children of the couple were born in Greenock in c.1834 and c.1838 - also couldn't find OPR entries for their christenings. 

Fide - does the surname McLarty mean anything to you? I wondered if perhaps Sarah Douglas had ever used this name at all ... if you look the surname up on IGI or SP you will see that there seems to be a large number of folks with this surname in and around Craignish, where Sarah Douglas was born.  I mention this coincidence as not sure if you noticed in the OPRs there are two births registered to a couple named William Coutts and Sarah McLarty in Arbroath in years which tally with births of children of William Coutts and Sarah Douglas on the census.  One of the girls is named Agnes Wanless Coutts ... which is a big coincidence given that William Coutts' potential sister Isobel (if he is indeed the son of Alexander Coutts and Isa/obel Leith) was married to a Mr Wanless.  Coincidences I'm sure but I thought worth pointing out to keep in mind. 

[Fide et Fortitudine]

Gali, we're on the same track.  I spotted the Sarah McLarty-William Coutts-Agnes Wadlass Coutts connection too, and wondered if she might be the same Sarah as Sarah Douglas.  However, there's this:

OPR Births Craignish, Argyll 508/00 0020 0045
SARAH CAMPBELL McCLARTY, daughter of DONALD McLARTY, tenant in ****(?) McLarty, Craignish, and JEAN McLARTY, his wife, was born on 29/5/1830, and baptised 8/8/1830.

This conflicts with:

(a) 1841 census - Sarah (Douglas) Coutts already had 3 children by then and is aged approx. 25.  Sarah McLarty would have been only 11 years old that year, i.e. could not have 3 children. 
(b) Stat. Marriages 1855 - Sarah Douglas Coutts remarried James Allardice - Sarah's parents' names are given as ALEXANDER DOUGLAS and SARAH CAMPBELL, i.e. not the same parents as Sarah McLarty's.
(c)  Stat. Marriages 1865 - Alexander Coutts's marriage cert. (William Coutts's 2nd son) states that his mother's name was SARAH COUTTS nee DOUGLAS, i.e. not McLarty.

So they can't be the same Sarahs. 

The fact that marriage certs are proving hard to find for a William Coutts and any Sarah, and lack of christenings for the eldest children suggests that they might not have been married at that time.  I found a christening for MARY COUTTS at St. Vigeans Parish, 27/12/1847, born at Crossgate Road, daughter of WILLIAM COUTTS, a Weaver, and his wife, SARAH DOUGLAS.  (Mary is the 5th child.)  Sarah Douglas Allardice's death cert. (1871) also states that she was the first wife of William Coutts. 

Looby, yes, I have seen the Ann Skea connection too.  It looks like we can safely rule out William Coutts the tanner. 

The William Coutts living in Greenock in 1841 sounds promising, given that his 2 eldest sons were born there c. 1834 and 1838.  It suggests William might have returned to that area for work.  The problem is his living arrangements in 1841 don't confirm who his parents were.  My William was born at Murroes, Dundee in Angus (1851 census), which is nowhere near Greenock.  I have searched OPR births at Greenock Old & West, Greenock East, and Greenock New and no William Couttses in the early 1800s. 

OPR Births search for a William Couts born between 1810 and 1815 yield 5 results:
(1) parish of Keig, Aberdeen
(2) parish of Lerwick, Shetland
(3) parish of Dundee, Angus
(4) parish of Balmaghie, Kirkcudbright
(5) parish of Meigle, Perth

The only one that is remotely near Murroes is No. 3.  And guess who the parents are?  ALEXANDER COUTS & ISABEL LEITH!  :-D

Grave plots at Arbroath might be an avenue to explore, given that family members were often buried in the same grave or nearby.  If I can find the OPR deaths for Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith, they might tell me the grave no. or location. 







 

 

[Fide et Fortitudine]

Just had an afterthought:

My William Coutts's first son was called William, and the second son was Alexander. 

Given the Scottish tradition, this suggests William's father might have been named William, while the second son was named after the mother's father.  This fits because Sarah Douglas's father was Alexander Douglas! 

Looking back at those 5 search results, the only William Couts with a father named William is the one born in the parish of Lerwick, Shetlands!  Born 25/8/1811, baptised 7/9/1811.  The birth year is about right too.  Father:  William Couts, Mother: Margaret Scollen. 

Margaret/Mary are variants. William's 5th child is Mary. 

Is this a long shot or am I onto something here?

[loobylooayr]

Who would have thought there would have been so many William Coutts about  ? I didn't think it was a very common name but obviously on the east coast (I'm a west coast girl) it was / is.

The naming tradition can be quite handy at times narrowing down grandparents. But of course, if a child is born and dies in between Census's and is never listed in OPR's they are 'invisible'. Sarah and Wiliiam have lost an Ann who appears as 10 months old in 1841 but vanishes on the 1851. She appears to be the 1st daughter....but not called after either potential granny .

I tend to think your William is an Angus man given that there seem to be so many Coutts in the St. Vigeans/ Arbroath area and that his wife and children are there in 1841 then the family as a whole in 1851.
But it does raise the question of how a east coast man met and married an Argyllshire lassie and I reckon they probably both left their home area for work and met....at Greenock possibly??

Looby

[loobylooayr]

And I forgot to say....no matter what variant of Coutts I have tried on Freecen I cannot find William In Greenock....I've even searched William with no surname of that age group in Greenock and still no joy! Like Gali I thought 1841 Scotland was complete on that website but that William  is missing....

[Fide et Fortitudine]

Thanks, Looby.  We can rule out my William being born in Greenock.  1851 census says he was born in Forfarshire, 'Morres' (= Murroes, Dundee).  This William Coutts is definitely my William because I have other info on the descendants and members of the same household. 

So you are right that my William is definitely an Angus man, but that doesn't mean his parents were.  His parents might have moved to Angus from somewhere else. 

I agree, it is most likely that my William Coutts moved to Greenock for work in the early 1830s, and met Sarah Douglas there, who probably also moved there with her family from Craignish, Argyllshire.  In the early 1800s Craignish was a remote peninsula; there was probably not a lot of work for the poor there compared to Greenock, which was already an established thriving port.  In 1800 the lands of Craignish were sold off to the Campbells of Jura.  This might have sparked some resentment in the 'old' Campbells of Craignish (Sarah Douglas's mother was a Campbell).  Sarah Douglas's father - Alexander Douglas - was a tailor (re: Stat. Marriages 1855 - Sarah Douglas & James Allardice) and my William Coutts was initially a weaver (re: OPR births Mary Coutts) so it is not inconceivable that William Coutts met Alexander Douglas, his future father-in-law, through the textile industry exporting at the port of Greenock to America, and therefore met his daughter Sarah.  As the flax industry developed on the east coast, and as William Coutts was from the Dundee / Arbroath area, it looks like he took Sarah Douglas back with him in the mid-1840s, where his children Agnes and Mary were born. 

I'm using a bit of imagination here, but you can see the possibilities! 

You are right that the names of daughters Ann (who died) and Agnes do not point to any obvious grannies so far.  There was a 6th unnamed child as well, who also died (re: Sarah's 2nd marriage cert. 1855).  The 3 surviving children of William & Sarah were William, Alexander and Agnes Coutts. 

One thing for certain is that in 1851 William Coutts and Sarah Coutts (nee Douglas) were listed as husband & wife in the same household.  But I cannot find their marriage cert. anywhere. 

I am still no closer to finding out who William Coutts's parents were!  Battling on ...