Doune church, Macduff

[jmp]

Hi all,

I am helping a friend with their family tree but I am a novice at Scottish records. I have seen that there is an MI for Doune church ( on the ANESFHS site which I have just found) for the family of William Annand with wife Helen Houston Craib ( I have both death certificates).

Also listed is Sarah Riddoch who is Helen's mother and an unknown Sarah Annand who I reckon might be Williams sister although I havent found a baptism for her. William's parents also a William and Helen Piper do not appear to be buried with them.  Neither is Sarah Riddoch's husband John Craib. Possibly they died first and the family at that stage had not enough money for a headstone?

I gather that burial records are pretty sparse but can anyone tell me if it is likely that the ages of the people would be recorded on the MI. Im particularly interested in the two Sarah's as I havent been able to track down Sarah Riddoch at all apart from her marraige to John Craib in Alvah in 1792 and as I say I cant find any reference to a Sarah Annand.

Also being used to English records where "Houston" given as a middle name is likely to point towards a family name further back in time, does this follow in Scottish records? If so I cant find a link.

Finally, for genealogy purposes would you refer to the church as the "Parish Church" or as a "Kirk" and do the parishes churches have specific names e.g. St Marys, St Johns etc as if so Im having difficulties in finding what they are for specific places.

Many thanks all for any help you can give to what must be some pretty basic questions

Jackie

[Forfarian]

I gather that burial records are pretty sparse but can anyone tell me if it is likely that the ages of the people would be recorded on the MI.

I think that if the ages are on the MI they are normally in the MI index.

Also being used to English records where "Houston" given as a middle name is likely to point towards a family name further back in time, does this follow in Scottish records?

Yes.

Finally, for genealogy purposes would you refer to the church as the "Parish Church" or as a "Kirk"

I might use either. I would probably say 'parish kirk' rather than 'parish church' but that's just because that was how we referred to the building with the steeple in the middle of the town when I was a child. Basically you can use the word 'kirk' in all the contexts where you might use the word 'church' - they are completely interchangeable.

do the parishes churches have specific names e.g. St Marys, St Johns etc as if so Im having difficulties in finding what they are for specific places.

Mostly, yes. The parish kirk is usually dedicated to some saint or other, and there are some dedicated to Holy Trinity. But I am willing to bet that most people would be hard put to tell you to which saint their local parish kirk is dedicated to. I can't actually tell you offhand the dedication of the building with the steeple in the middle of the town where I grew up! I know it's not St James', St John's or St Margaret's, because they all belong to other kirks in the town.

It's different where there is more than one kirk in a town or village. If they are all different denominations, they are probably just referred to as the parish kirk, the Catholic church, the episcopal church (or English church), the Free kirk, or whatever. Only in a bigger place are people likely to know them by their dedications, as in Edinburgh where there are St Giles', St George's, St John's, St Mary's, St Andrew's etc etc.

[jmp]

Thanks Forfarian for your very helpful advice.

I did wonder about the names of the churches as I couldnt find any real reference to them in Genuki or on Scotlandspeople. Thanks as well for the info about the ages on the MI's too

Cheers
Jackie

[GR2]

Front of stone:

Erected by Helen Housten Craib to the memory of her dutiful and affectionate mother Sarah Riddoch d. 28 Nov. 1826 aged 72. Also the above named Helen Housten Craib d. 27 Dec. 1857 aged 61. Also her dau. Sarah d. 2 Mar. 1842 aged 2 mths and her husband William Annand d. 1 Jan. 1860 aged 74.

Back of stone:

Flaked and now unreadable.

[Forfarian]

Thanks, GR2. I stand corrected again.

[GR2]

Jmp, I take it you have looked at the 1841 and 1851 census. If not (using FreeCEN), in 1841 the family is in Paterson Street, Macduff. William is a joiner and the rest of the household consists of Helen and their children, William and Helen. All are said to be born in Banffshire.

In 1851 the household is the same, at 8 Paterson Street, only Helen senior is said to be born in Haddington, East Lothian. William senior is now deaf.

As far as the kirk goes, Originally Doune was a small village in the parish of Gamrie. It was enlarged and developed by the Duff family in the late 18th century and the name changed in 1783 to Macduff. All earlier baptisms etc. are to be found in the Gamrie registers. A kirk was built at Macduff in 1805, officially as a "chapel of ease" for those in the western part of the parish of Gamrie. I have found that a good number of the baptisms and marriages entered in the Macduff registers continued also to be entered in the Gamrie ones. If you find this it is always worth looking at both. Sometimes extra information is gven in one (and sometimes one has an error!). The first burial in the kirkyard at Macduff (Doune) took place in 1808. Before that, people were buried at St John's kirkyard in Gamrie or some perhaps in Banff or (as there was settlement from outwith the parish to the new Macduff) people were taken to be buried in family lairs in the surrounding area.

I have looked at the monumental inscriptions for St John's, Gamrie, and there is no stone there to William Annand and Helen Piper. If they were buried there and lived long enough, a fairly good burial register exists for St John's from about 1822. Their details, however, might be on the flaked side of the stone at Macduff  .

[jmp]

Thank you very much GR2 for the transcription of the gravestone, it gives me a clue at least for Sarah Riddochs birth and also the birth of young Sarah. I hadn't found a baptism for her. 

I do have the Censuses thank you, but was a bit confused about the Haddington description given for her birth when I looked at the map. Although I cant find her in the Banffshire baptisms being born in Haddington over 150 miles away seems a bit excessive, but I see there is a place called Headitown of Pitgair less than a mile from Gamrie, so think this might be a case of a misheard placename by the enumerator 

Thank you as well for the information about Doune and Macduff, that makes it clearer to me.

Can I ask, if a married woman is buried in the churchyard and an entry made in the burial register, would I find her under her married name or her maiden name? I see that a lot of ladies also had their maidennames added in the burial registers which is very helpful to us genealogists but wonder what the "form" is for transcribing these i.e. would both names appear in Scotlandspeople or just the first "surname" recorded?

Finally is Houston likely to be a family name does anyone know?

Thanks again eveyrone for all your help

[Forfarian]

I see there is a place called Headitown of Pitgair less than a mile from Gamrie, so think this might be a case of a misheard placename by the enumerator 

I'd be surprised if an enumerator would write down a place 200 miles away rather than a place one mile away, but it's a better explanation than having them traipsing to and from Haddington

Have you checked the originals of the census, or are you using transcriptions?

Can I ask, if a married woman is buried in the churchyard and an entry made in the burial register, would I find her under her married name or her maiden name? I see that a lot of ladies also had their maidennames added in the burial registers which is very helpful to us genealogists but wonder what the "form" is for transcribing these i.e. would both names appear in Scotlandspeople or just the first "surname" recorded?

In Scotlandspeople, all a woman's surnames are recorded on her death certificate, assuming of course that the informant knew.

In burial records, you can get almost any permutation and combination from the very helpful 'Jean Bloggs spouse to John Brown' to the unhelpful 'Mrs Soap' which doesn't tell you whether this was Mistress Soap or Mistress Something-else married to Joe Soap. Or it could be 'Jock Tamson's relict', which at least tells you (a) that her husband was Jock Tamson, and (b) that he died before her.

Finally is Houston likely to be a family name does anyone know?

Yes. See my previous answer.

[jmp]

Sorry I missed your answer about Houston previously

I am looking at the original Censuses, it does say very clearly Haddington, but not East Lothian in the 51 Census. Whereas the 41 Census indicates a birth in Banffshire and as John the father was a
Gardener by profession I reckon the Haddington East Lothian might be unlikely. However it is probably one of those entries to put both down in until or if I can find a baptism for her

Thank you for all your help
Jackie