Author Topic: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie(Completed with thanks)  (Read 19605 times)

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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This is bizarre!   

From the 1891 census, Arbroath:
Dwelling at 25 Earnest Street

- Alexander Petrie, head, married, 54, baker journeyman, b. Arbroath
- Jane Petrie, wife, married, 45, b. Arbroath
- Agnes Petrie, dau, unmarried, 25, housekeeper, b. Arbroath
- John Petrie, son, unmarried, 23, flaxdresser, b. Arbroath
- Davina Petrie, dau, unmarried, 19, canvas weaver, b. Arbroath
- Allan Petrie, son, 14, baker apprentice, b. Arbroath
- Alexander Petrie, son, 12, publican's assistant, b. Arbroath
- Jane Petrie, granddaughter, 3, b. Arbroath
- Marion Petrie, dau, married, 21, flax reeler, b. Arbroath
- ALEXANDER COUTTS, BOARDER, MARRIED, 23, PATTERN MAKER, b. RUSSIA   :o

I want to establish or eliminate this Alexander Coutts from my family tree.  His age fits with one of my Alexander Couttses, whose parents were born in Arbroath, who was also a baker journeyman later in life (where did he learn the trade.....?) and married.  Yet my Alexander Coutts seems to be off the 1891 census everywhere else ...

I find it really hard to believe that any Couttses would be born in Russia in the 1860s, and even if true, what's he doing in Arbroath?  Who are his parents and what's the connection with the Petrie family? 

Alexander Petrie m. Jean/Jane Carrie in Arbroath, 1863.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJB-R5B

There's an Alexander Coutts married to a Marion Petrie Coutts, who had a child Francis Alexander Coutts in Arbroath, August 1891. 
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT6J-K9Z
The 1891 census was taken in April.  Could the Marion Petrie in the household on Earnest St, married, be the same one, pregnant with Francis?  But who is the boarder Alexander?!  And if the boarder was married to Marion, would it not say 'son-in-law' instead?

There is a link between the Arbroath Petries and the Arbroath Couttses, but I have yet to figure out what it is.  Any help very much appreciated.

--
Pattern maker = a metal worker who made forms and moulds for casting iron.
http://scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm




 

Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline GR2

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 29 June 13 15:11 BST (UK) »
It may well be that the Marion Petrie here is the wife of the boarder, Alexander Coutts. The thing to do is check their marriage certificate on the Scotland's People site. If it is not there, look at the birth of their son, as his birth certificate will give the date and place of his parents' marriage. The occupation of Alexander's father on the marriage certificate will point to a reason for him being born in Russia (or whatever part of the Russian empire is covered by the word).

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 29 June 13 15:47 BST (UK) »
There was a bit of railway building, engineering and cotton mills in the 1800's in Narva. This is listed as the location where Alexander Coutts was born.
He arrived in Detroit, Michigan on 15 Aug 1912. He was 41, a wood pattern maker and he crossed the Canadian border heading for Hamilton, Ontario.

Regards

Malky

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 29 June 13 16:59 BST (UK) »
Thanks, GR2, you were right.  Alexander Coutts, the pattern maker and boarder, was the husband of Marion Petrie and the father of Francis Alexander Coutts. 
1891   COUTTS  FRANCIS ALEXAND   M  ARBROATH/ANGUS   272/00 0393

They were married earlier on 1/1/1891 at the Masonic Hall of Arbroath, so why does Marion use her maiden name on the census?  I'm guessing the little girl Jane living with them, aged 3, is also their child.  Alexander had an Edinburgh address at the time of marriage, so I'm wondering how he met Marion, the baker's daughter and flax reeler in Arbroath.  According to the marriage reg the pattern maker's parents were Alexander Coutts, a bleachfield manager, and Elizabeth Coutts, MS Anderson. Witnessed by William Stewart and Davina Petrie [Marion's sister].
1891    COUTTS   ALEXANDER       PETRIE MARION   ARBROATH/ANGUS   272/00 0014

Bleachfield = a textile bleaching factory, so called from their early work in the fields
http://scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm

Alexander Coutts (the factory manager) m. Elizabeth Anderson in 1852.  Banns proclaimed 28/8/1852 and 29/9/1852 in the parish of Barry (Angus), married 17/9/1852 at Westhaven, parish of Panbridge (Angus).  The OPR doesn't specify who this Alexander's parents were, so I am not sure who he is either, or if there's any connection to my tree. A quick search on FS indicates that Alexander Coutts, Snr. & Elizabeth Anderson had at least 6 children:
1. William Coutts, b. 1853, Panbridge, Angus
2. Mary Still Coutts, b. 1855, Panbridge, Angus
3. Ann Coutts, b. 1857, Panbridge, Angus
4. Joan Coutts, b. 1859 Old Machar, Aberdeen
5. Christina Coutts, b. 1862, Glasgow
and presumably some time around 1868, the son Alexander, in Russia?   ???

Something doesn't add up.   

I have confirmed that Alexander Coutts the pattern maker is definitely not the Alexander I was looking for (he had different parents, and I still don't know where he is in 1891). But now I've opened up a whole new can of worms!  Where were all their other children when the pattern maker was born?  The youngest, Christina, would have been about 6.  It doesn't make sense.

I am wondering if the bleachfield manager has any links to my tree.  If I can find the same family on the 1871 census (shortly after the pattern maker's estimated birth), it might help. 

The quest continues!  ;D

Flattybasher9, thank you very much for that titbit.  Where have you seen the record of Alexander's birth in Narva?  Does it confirm his parents as above? 


   
Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe


Offline breaky

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 29 June 13 17:08 BST (UK) »
The 1901 census at 62 Cairnie Street has the Russian born pattern maker (in wood), Alexander,  with his wife "Marion P." -  with children Agnes, 5 or 7(unclear), Mabel, 5 and William 3.  Agnes Petrie age 36, a "visitor" and single - a dressmaker, is with them.

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 29 June 13 17:42 BST (UK) »
Thank you, Breaky.  I take it the visitor Agnes Petrie was Marion's elder sister, Alexander's sister-in-law, on the 1891 census with the family at Earnest Street.  The boy Francis Alexander must have died between 1891 and 1901.  And the girl Jane. 

I need to try and find out more about the bleachfield manager Alexander Coutts & the Andersons now!   :)
Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 29 June 13 20:06 BST (UK) »
His birth place is on the Canadian papers.

Regards

Malky

Offline Skoosh

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia?! Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 29 June 13 21:33 BST (UK) »
Book, "The House by the Dvina" by Eugenie Fraser, an interesting insight into the lives of Scots in Russia.

Skoosh.

Offline Fide et Fortitudine

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Re: A Scotsman born in Russia - Coutts/Petrie/Carrie - Arbroath
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 30 June 13 04:20 BST (UK) »
Alexander Coutts Snr. was undoubtedly an employee of the Krenholm Manufacturing Co. in Narva, the largest cotton factory in the world in the late 19th century, with a staff of thousands, built 1857.  Now in modern day Estonia, at that time part of Imperial Russia. 

Hundreds of British and German textile experts were brought in to Krenholm to train and manage the local workforce.  The company paid low wages, but provided housing, kindergartens, schools and health insurance for its workers and families.  The company was still operating as late as 2010. 

The 19th century German economist and professor at Freiburg and Heidelberg universities, Gerhart von Schulze-Gävernitz said about the factory: "The whole place is a bit of England on Russian ground." 
[Drage, Geoffrey (1904). Russian affairs (Public domain ed.). J. Murray. pp. 363–. Retrieved 29 March 2012.]

http://www.narvagate.eu/eng/history.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Knoop

http://eng.1september.ru/article.php?ID=200801606

http://news.err.ee/economy/67dceda1-270c-4700-829a-19ba8ef83bb0
 - this article has comments at the end from other people whose ancestors worked at Krenholm before the first world war.

If I can find Alexander Snr's death cert, it will tell me who his parents were, who might link in (or not) with my tree. 


   
Fide et Fortitudine - By fidelity and fortitude
"I force nae freen" - I force no friend and fear no foe