can anyone identify the military uniforms in 2 portraits c1815

[allystree]

Hi
can anyone identify the military uniforms which are worn in 2 portraits which are part of the National Trust collection at Cragside?
I believe I can identify the sitters but am having difficulty finding military information for one of them, and having little/no knowledge of the military of the time cannot be certain of the other.
I do not wish to post the images (copyright?), am I able to post links to the images?

http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/1230234

I think this is my 4th ggrandfather John Watson. He was born c1790 near Bamburgh, Northumberland. According to a family tree from Lord Armstrongs archives, Tyne and Wear he was 'in the army, settled in Ireland" which I already knew.
I know he had not enlisted in the army by 1804. He married in Ireland in Feb 1815, and remained there. Other family members think he was a Captain but the only references I have found of him say Lieutenant.

http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/1230232

Could this be his brother Joseph Yelloly Watson 1793 Bamburgh-1818 India? I have the documents, his application as a cadet to the East India Company dated Jan 1812. He died in 1818 in India, an ensign of the Bengali Infantry. I thought this would be an army, but am thrown by the fact that he is painted with an anchor and ships in the background.

These 2 portraits seem to be part of a set of 5 portraits, all in the same or similar frames. I am sure I can identify the other 3 portraits from 2 family photographs and also personal (family history research) knowledge of the ages and occupations of the 4 Watson brothers and their cousin WH Watson who became Lord Armstrongs brother-in-law. The portraits of the parents of the 4 brothers do hang at Cragside and are identified as Dorothy Gillily (should read Yelloly) and William Watson.

If there are any clues in the portraits in could help further my research, particularly that of my John Watson.

Alison

[John915]

Good afternoon,

The first is I believe a Lieutenant, only one shoulder tassel, late 1700s. The second is a midshipman, royal navy of the same era.

John915

Sorry, early 1800s for second.

[km1971]

As you have a name for the army officer you should look for his commission entries in the London Gazette archive - http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/AdvancedSearch.aspx?geotype=London

I would try watson gent ensign in the top search box for his first commission for a gent becoming an ensign, from say 1807. If you are sure he had no middle name(s) you could try john watson in the second box.

Ken

[John915]

Good evening,

No good looking for commissions in the 1800s when the picture is clearly dated 1770-1799.

John915

[km1971]

Good evening,

No good looking for commissions in the 1800s when the picture is clearly dated 1770-1799.

John915

You use of 'clearly' without an explanation is rather amateurish, if not childish. Do you now require the questioner to ask you nicely?

Ken

[allystree]

Well I was a little perplexed by the reference to the date, but as the sitters and the artists are stated as unknown I am sure the dates could be unknown as well. I wondered if I have just been relayed the information which is already noted on the NT site.
Perhaps the curators were hoping it was Baron WH Watsons father, Capt John Watson (1760-1798) who was in the EIC 76th reg from 1792-1798.

You have confirmed to me that the redcoat is in fact a Lieutenant- that's very promising.
I wonder what is over the right shoulder of the midshipman? It doesn't appear to be a sailship, it looks more like a WW2 battleship- could it be a building?
The mention of the Royal Navy seemed to throw my theory out the window but an internet search of the uniforms of the EIC states that their officers uniforms were styled on that of the Royal Navy until about 1820 when the blue jackets, white silks and gold buttons had some black velvet attached to distinguish them from the Royal Navy. yes!

Thank you or the excellent link to the London Gazettes Ken. I have searched a little but John Watson is quite a common name- will get there when I have more time to take it in.

I did revisit the 1804/05 diary I have which mentions my Watson family. The last mention of John in the diary is in Oct 1804. Of interest is some extracts from Feb 1804-

February 2: We were all very much alarmed this morning by a report that the French are landed in Scotland, the Glendale Cavalry are gone to Alnwick to join the Percy Tenantry.
Feb 3: John Watson and Richard Wood called. The report was false – the beacons were lighted by mistake. James came home very much mystified that he had not seen some of the French dogs. I won seven pence at cards – we amused ourselves tonight by blacking each other’s faces.
(*the last few sentences unnecessary for this post but I thought you would enjoy the social history, maybe they were practising blacking their faces in the event of an invasion)

John Watson seemed to buddy about with Richard Wood quite abit in the diary- I searched the London Gazette for him as it is not such a common name. He enlisted in the 62nd regiment in 1804, of which the 2nd battalion was stationed in Ireland from 1813. John Watson married there in 1815.

You have both assisted me greatly- a lieutenant and the London Gazette online.
Thankyou very much,
Alison

[John915]

Good evening,

Ken, my apologies if I was a little short in my answer, it was not my intention to be rude to you or Alison.

However, I believe the dates to be correct in both instances as they match the style of uniforms. Although it doesn't expand much on what is shown at the top, by clicking on more detail it tells you what, where and who from. Probably in lieu of death duties as is quite normal for items given to the NT. The NT have a very good team of experts who date pictures from what they see and what information is given to them with the pictures.

I'm a little perplexed by the single epaulette which would normally be worn on the right by a battalion officer (both shoulders for grenadiers and light infantry) Captains and above wore 2 also. It's a shame we can't see the hair at the back as that would give a far better idea of date. 1776 to 1796 all ranks wore the hair clubbed (a large tarred bunch) 1796 to 1805 it was worn queued (an 11in plait)

Alison, that is indeed a sail ship over the midshipmans shoulder. you are looking at the 2 large sails on the foremast.

John915

[allystree]

Thank you John

What do you think could be over the other shoulder, his right?

Alison

[macintosh]

I thought the shape over his right shoulder was similar to a ww2 vessel for a nano second, but patently it isn't, looking on full magnification I think it is a coastal station or Martello Tower like structure, given the datelines Martello Towers were plentiful.

James