Liffen help please

[lizdb]

Heres the full 1871 - I find it easier when all the info is on the thread
Not only is Eliza  bn Ramsgate,but eldest child too

Eliza 44 widow Charwoman bn Ramsgate kent
George 17 labourer bn Ramsgate
James 15 leather labourer bn St John
Mary Ann13 bn St John
Frederick 11 bn Bermondsey
Eliza 9 bn Bermondsey
Isabella 7 bn Berm.
Thomas 4 bn Berm.


And 1861
John 40 mariner bn City of London
Eliza 34 bn Ramsgate
John 16 bn Borough
Emily 11 bn Horsleydown
George 8 bn Horsleydown
James 6 bn Hors.
Mary Ann 3 bn Berm.
Frederick 1 bn Berm.


I see red writing as I post - brilliant, you have taken it back further.

[Annette7]

The surname is not easy, is it?

Found John's baptism (a wee bit older than he said):

John Liffen b.28/8/1817, bp.18/3/1818 Horsleydown St. John, Southwark, son of John and Hannah of Potters Fields.   John senior is a Bricklayer.

Annette

Note - John Leffen bc.1821 d. Dec.qtr.1866 Bermondsey.

[lizdb]

I wondered about that christening for him, but would hardly call Horsleydown "city of London", that coupled with the date discrepancy made me hesitate.

[Annette7]

Can't see any other children born to John and Hannah - may have died young and John junior might not have known exactly where he was born.

Certainly, from marriage certificate his father was named John - suspect it may show deceased and occupation not always given in that instance.

Annette

[Ladyhawk]

Starting from scratch with the name Frederick, here is his birth (indexed Leffen)
Oct/Nov/Dec 1894
St Savioirs Southwark
Ref 1d 21

And Annette has found his christening confirming parents as Frederick and Adelaide.

They have been found in 1901, here is the full transcription:
RG 13 388 167 60
7 Edward House, Peter Road, Bermonsey
Frederick 42 Dock labourer
Adelaide 42
Mary 5
Julia 3
Frederick 2    all bn Bermonsey

As Annette said, ages are not that accurate!

Back 10 years to 1891 (again has been found,but here is full transcription):
RG12 380 14 24
21 St Johns Place Bermonsey
Fred 25 gen labourer
Adelaide  25
Adelaide 10
Emily 6
Eliza 5
Mary 7 mths

Again, ages not good compared with 1901!

Then, as everyone else found, the trail goes cold.

Not sure if this is the same couple with son - check the 1911 census  surname LUFFIN

Mmm... I not seeing a marriage either 

Frederick & Adelaide LIFFEN living at 179 Barnham Street on the Electoral Register date:-

1918/22/25/27/28/29/30/31
1922 living with them George Liffen
1925 gives Frederick Jnr. living at number 178  (perhaps the 8 should have been a 9 as father noted as Frederick Snr.)

1934/35/36 only Frederick LIFFEN's name listed as living at 179 Barnham Street

1910/11/13 same address as above only  Frederick LIFFEN named
1912 house number 172 Barnham Street Dwellings

A couple of deaths -

Both Bermondsey - so they stayed in that area

March 1938, Bermondsey ref 1d 81
Frederick  Liffen age 77 

June 1951, Bermondsey ref 5c 117
Frederick Liffen age 56

I wonder if this might be Frederick Snr & Jnr on Electoral Register

You mention on you post that Frederick (b1894) married Mary
perhaps this is them on Electoral Register - Did they have a son?

1939 Southwark
9 New Kent Road SE 17
Frederick LIFFEN
Mary LIFFEN (female)
F A LIFFEN (male)

1951 Southwark
2 Townsend Street SE 17
Frederick LIFFEN

[londonliffen]

Firstly I would like to thank you lizdb, Annette7 and Ladyhawk for your kind help, it is very much appreciated. I work away from home so I can't always reply as promptly as I would like  to and  I wouldn't want you to think that I haven't bothered to reply.

I have ordered a Birth Certificate for my GF Frederick Liffen (b 1894) and agree that the Mothers' surname should be very helpful. Will of course post on here as soon as it arrives.

A slight correction to their address in the 1901 Census, they lived at 7, Edward House, Potier Place (later renamed Rephiderm St in 1905). I understand that GF Fredericks brother George lived in this road too.

I too agree that the age details on various Census forms are making the research more difficult and i wonder why the details my relatives gave varied so much?

Frederick and Adelaide did indeed live at 76 Barnham St Dwellings and Frederick my GF, Mary(Law his wife) and my dad Harry, aunt Mary, uncle Fred and i think Uncle George lived at 179. They later lived at 20 Avondale Sq, Old Kent Rd;they  lived there whilst my dad was away in the 2nd WW and he returned there in 1946. In 1952  GM Mary, Harry (my dad),Mary (aunt), and uncle George lived there until 1956(at least). My uncle Fred, the oldest child had left the residence previously (in fact living at 29 Warren Buildings Brandon St in 1945 and from 1948-1951 at  2 Townsend St Old Kent Rd).

Something I've learnt is that the family moved from lodging to lodging but in a very small radius of a mile or 2-likewise my Mothers side were similar-maybe getting evicted or hopefully "improving" their accommodation.

Lizdb-The death in June 1951 is certainly my GF  and assume that the other Frederick you mention who died in 1938 is his father, but sadly no one in the family knows.

Your details of 1939, 9 New Kent Rd are proving a  little confusing for me (So Many Fredericks !) I believe Uncle Freds first wife was Irene so I can only guess that its my uncle fred, GM Mary or maybe aunt Mary? Maybe not a good idea for me to guess?

I had an Uncle Fred (1917-2005app) who had a son Fred too.

And  Uncle did indeed live at 2 Townsend St from 1948-1951. I believe Cousin Fred is alive but we are not in touch .

Thank you to everyonr for your time.

Kind regards

Henry

[avm228]

Hi Henry and gang

Some school admission details for the children:

Webb St School, Southwark
1891 (19 Oct): Emily LIFFIN, dau of Fred^k of 10 Goulston Bldgs. DOB 9/1/85.
1891 (19 Oct): Eliza LIFFIN, dau of Fred^k of 10 Goulston Bldgs. DOB 9/10/86. Left 5/12/91.

Laxon St School, Southwark
1892 (5 Dec): Emily LIFFEN, dau of Fred^k of 2 Bangor Court. DOB 15/2/85. Previously attended Webb St School. Left 20/5/93.

Snowsfields School, Southwark
1900 (10 Oct): Fred LIFFEN, son of Fred^k of 108 High Street. DOB 1/2/95.  Previously attended Magdalen St School.
1901 (25 Feb): George LIFFEN, son of Fred^k of 7 Edward House, Trinity Buildings, DOB 8/3/97.


The birthdates are a bit all over the place!

[londonliffen]

Lizdb-just a very quick note but Adelaide was the illegitimate daughter of Adelaide, NOT a Liffen, she bore her when she was 15. I've no idea of her father, or what happened to her.

Kind regards

Henry

[jbml]

Don't wish to disrespect your family but Frederick and Adelaide are not too hot on ages from 1891 census onwards. 

What use had they for ages??

In all probability they didn't keep track of them. Once every ten years a man came round and asked them their names and ages. He did his best to construe and transliterate their names. As for their ages, I imagine that their answers were absolutely consistent. Namely: "Don't know". The ennumerator therefore took a long, hard look at them (or, more likely, a very cursory, short glance at them) and entered his best guess in his form before moving on to teh next household.

There was a lot of it about in them days ...