death certificate

[majm]

sorry didn't answer your question I have certificates for the marriages

Bozzle,

This answer is puzzling me...  Do you actually have the images of the original parish registers for both those marriages?   Both the 1820 and the 1846 marriages are obviously from the pre-civil registration era in NSW, and decades prior to NSW BDM actually collating their holdings for marriages.       

I also know that 1820 to 1846 is the equivalent of a generation or more, afterall it is twenty five years !!!  so it is possible that it is NOT the same James on those two marriages....   

Leonard CHEATHAM is shown as aged 31 on the NSW 1828 census    ….
So a Question :
   What is the recorded age for Leonard J CHEETHAM on your copy of  the C of E marriage in 1846  

James CHEATHAM is shown as aged   28 and Elizabeth Cheatham as aged 32 on the NSW 1828 CENSUS…. 
   So a Question : What is the recorded age for James CHEETHAM on your copy of the C of E marriage in 1820 

James CHEATHAM’s signature of 29 October 1828 is available and I am sure that although that he signs with a double “e” rather than with “ea” although the Police Constable who completed the form recorded it as “ea” for James, Elizabeth, and Leonard. 

As to Mary, a Catholic, born in the colony and aged 9 in the Cheatham household ....    perhaps she had died by the time Elizabeth petitioned re land in 1830

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Re Mary Turley CHEATHAM

There’s a C of E marriage for a Mary Ann TURLY/MARY A TURLEY married William GARVIN registered Bathurst District (Abercrombie circuit) 31 March 1835
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZK-997   
NSW BDM reference  1835, Vol 19, line 1356

Aged 9 in 1828, so in 1835 she was STILL a minor, and would have required CONSENT of her parent or legal guardian to MARRY ....     The person giving consent ought to be recorded on the original parish register.      The official witnesses to that marriage would also be noted on that mc 


Cheers,  JM

[majm]

It is very likely I am repeating myself, and also that I am duplicating information previously given on earlier threads, but to save others re-reading the earlier threads, may I please offer the following info

BACKGROUND
Pre Civil registration,  (Civil rego commences in NSW in 1856) …
The details for a NSW marriage would be recorded by the officiating minister/priest in at least ONE local parish register, but often in TWO local parish registers. (One stored safely within the Church Building, and one kept close to the clergyman so that in case of fire he could immediately protect it)…. Where the clergyman was on a circuit, travelling from locality to locality he kept one with him in his saddle bag and one stayed behind for him to write it up on his return.   

 IF the celebrant obeyed the letter of the civil requirements (many did NOT, as they felt it more important to obey their Church laws and respect the sacredness of the details in their registers …. That is, not let secular eyes gain access, also keep it safe from persons of different denominations) THEN each quarter the celebrant would TRANSMIT the records to either the NSW Chaplains, or to his Sydney based Head Church Official for recording and onforwarding to the NSW Chaplains (This General Order dated from Gov Macquarie and was observed ‘more by the breach than by the actual observance’  particularly after the ceasation of Convicts being sent to NSW in 1840.  So by 1856, many NSW ECR marriages are found in Church registers and not at NSW BDM indexes) 

So, when you look on the NSW BDM online index  for marriages, and you find references commencing with “V” you often find SEVERAL different registration numbers for the ONE  ceremony.   Finding only ONE reference does NOT actually confirm that it was celebrated in that specific church (it can, but it can also be that THAT register is the one that the NSW BDM has in its holdings.)    It is unlikely that the officiating clergy noted the names of the parents for the bride or the groom on the early registers, UNLESS one of the parties were not yet 21 years of age, and the parent was available to give consent.     

As an aside, the “V” stands for VOLUME. (ie the Volume number assigned to that book by the NSW BDM in around 1912 when they were starting to become a tad more organised in their record keeping)

Here’s my summary of (hopefully "all" the ECR) marriages of interest in the CHEATHAM/CHEETHAM NSW branch (pre civil registrations)

1820 James CHEETHAM married Elizabeth TAYLOR at St John’s  Parramatta (C of E) but I have NOT found this listed at family search, sorry.
NSW BDM references
Vol 147B,  line 942
 Vol 3A, line 2481

1836 John CHEETHAM married Margaret SANDERS, 9 May 1836,  St James (C of E)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCT-Q4N
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZK-9YG
NSW BDM reference  Vol 20, line 94,  (NSW BDM have CHUTHAM for his surname)

1840 Leonard CHEETHAM married Anne CAHILL at Sydney  Presbyterian (St Andrews Scots)
(30 June 1840, her father was John CAHILL)
 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCN-LP2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCG-L6V
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZ7-YZW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-VWT
NSW BDM
Vol 74A line 3407
Vol 75  line 711

1842 Samuel CHEETHAM married Hannah HAMMERSLEY atChrist Church St Laurence (temporary building donated by Terry HUGHES - St Lawrence’s Church, cnr Elizabeth and Albion Streets Sydney) 4 April 1842
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCP-K32
NSW BDM Vol 26C  line 545
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ViewHeritageItemDetails.aspx?ID=2424276

1846 Leonard James CHEETHAM married Elizabeth FRIEND at 9 October, 1846 at The Garrison Church  (C of E)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-P3B
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZK-QJD
NSW BDM Vol 31C line 624

1853 Mary Ann CHEETHAM married Thomas MAIDMENT at St Johns, Picton  5 May 1853  (C of E)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC2-Q5V
NSW BDM Vol 39C  line 179

1853 John CHEETHAM married Fanny TYRRELL at St Lukes, Liverpool 5 June 1853 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC2-QXZ
NSW BDM Vol 39C  line 159

It is my understanding that EACH of those family search results is from a parish register, so in the case of the 1840 marriage of Leonard and Anne, there are FOUR registers to be checked    I do have my own family tree fairly well documented in that era and I am not surprised at finding FOUR ....  I have found one of my NSW ancestors marriage in six, back in the early 1820s....  twice in the local church,  BOTH those then transmitted to the Wesleyans at Parramatta, and then re-transmitted to St Phillips, C of E.   Yet, in recent times I am told that the current crop of Church Historians maintain that the Wesleyans only ever kept ONE register and rarely transmitted any records outside of their own denomination.       So I am not surprised by the lack of accuracy in the reply Bozzle received from NSW BDM.

Cheers,  JM

[Bozzle10]

sorry didn't answer your question I have certificates for the marriages

Bozzle,

This answer is puzzling me...  Do you actually have the images of the original parish registers for both those marriages?   Both the 1820 and the 1846 marriages are obviously from the pre-civil registration era in NSW, and decades prior to NSW BDM actually collating their holdings for marriages.       

I also know that 1820 to 1846 is the equivalent of a generation or more, afterall it is twenty five years !!!  so it is possible that it is NOT the same James on those two marriages....   

Cheers,  JM  (I will type up a very long post with info from my rellie .... retired NSW BDM senior officer)

I have from NSW BDM the marriage certificate of Leonard Cheetham to Anne CAHILL married 30th June 1840 at Sydney by sp. License by Rev John McGarvie minister of St Andrew's Church both delared that they are members of or hold communion with Presbyterian Church of Scotland. (this I believe to be James Cheetham's brother)


Many years again I found a card index and I think it was the Mutch Index but not really sure this had written on it
CHEETHAM, James 23 P Isabella
Taylor, Elizabeth 27 p Maria
1820 jan 29               Witness: Thos Sutton Mary Crawford x
St John's Parramatta

I also have a copy for NSW BDM
Number 2481 Vol 3
Parties
Groom James Cheetham
Abode -
Bride Elizabeth Taylor
Abode -
When married 29th January 1820
where married St. JOhns Parramatta
Authority -
Where Registered St. J Paramatta , B.
Clergyman Officiating -


FROM NSW BDM
number M 1846/24/31
Leonard James CHEETHAM of this parish Widower and Elizabeth Friend, of the Surry Hills, Sydney Widow were married in this Church by License this Ninth day of October in the year 1846 (Forty Six)
By me JC Grylls, Chaplain
This marriage was solemnized between us Leonard James Cheetham
Elizabeth Friend
In the Presence of Geo . Dent of Sydney
Ann Friend , of sydney

there is also a newpaper clipping announcing the wedding SMH 12 Oct 1846
October 9th . at Trinity Church Sydney Mr L.J. Cheetham of Bongygebong, Mudgee, to Elizabeth, Widow of the late Mr Robert Friend of Totnes Devon.

[Bozzle10]

Leonard CHEATHAM is shown as aged 31 on the NSW 1828 census    ….
So a Question :
   What is the recorded age for Leonard J CHEETHAM on your copy of  the C of E marriage in 1846   No age is recorded -states he is a widower

James CHEATHAM is shown as aged   28 and Elizabeth Cheatham as aged 32 on the NSW 1828 CENSUS…. 
   So a Question : What is the recorded age for James CHEETHAM on your copy of the C of E marriage in 1820  according to a card index I have he was 23 and she was 27 nothing recorded on NSW BDM

James CHEATHAM’s signature of 29 October 1828 is available and I am sure that although that he signs with a double “e” rather than with “ea” although the Police Constable who completed the form recorded it as “ea” for James, Elizabeth, and Leonard.  Not sure where you located his signature perhaps from ticket of leave?

As to Mary, a Catholic, born in the colony and aged 9 in the Cheatham household ....    perhaps she had died by the time Elizabeth petitioned re land in 1830

Cheers,  JM
[/quote]

[~MERLIN~]

Mary (Ann) TURLEY was the daughter of convicts Alice WAFER & James TURLEY.
There is a lot of documented evidence available from family researchers if you search.

[majm]

Thanks 

so you don't have the actual images ....  Not to worry, but if you were to get to the NSW State Library you may well find images there  in their family history section   You cannot take copies of the images, but you can write down what is there.   Quite often there's margin notes, squiggles, and ages written in the white space to the left of the signatures for the bride and the groom. 

ADDING,
Quite often there is variations in the amount of info on the different registers.   I find that the closer you get to the original register for the actual church ceremony, the greater the info recorded. so there's TWO entries on NSW BDM for the 1820 marriage 

Cheers,  JM

[Bozzle10]

I have the death certificate of Elizabeth Cheetham (Friend/ nee Bunker) in the Place of Marriage column it states Married twice 1st Totnes 19 yrs Robert Friend 2ND Sydney 34 yrs James L Cheetham
She died in 1873 her son in law R brownlow was the informant.

[Bozzle10]

Thanks 

so you don't have the actual images ....  Not to worry, but if you were to get to the NSW State Library you may well find images there  in their family history section   You cannot take copies of the images, but you can write down what is there.   Quite often there's margin notes, squiggles, and ages written in the white space to the left of the signatures for the bride and the groom. 

Cheers,  JM

Sorry to sound really dumb but would I be able to view this at Newcastle Library like on the church records on microfilm?