Author Topic: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?  (Read 3882 times)

Offline fbrg

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Hi all! This is my first post here, so I'd like to apologize in advance if I make any mistakes.

After a good deal of searching, I think I have located my grandfather and his sister in the Civil Registration Birth indexes for Northern Ireland on Family Search. Below is the relevant information from the entries. The dates in these entries match the ages which are recorded in the U.S. Census after they moved to the U.S., and I have a vague recollection from family lore that they were Orange Protestants from Northern Ireland, so I'm pretty confident I have the right people. There was also a (possibly older) brother named Mike Arthurs, who I haven't been able to find the least trace of beyond an entry on Find A Grave for his death in the 1903 coal mine disaster in Hanah Wyoming. Don't know what happened to his birth information, or what "Mike" might have been a nickname for.

Now I'd like to order the birth certificates for John and Lizzie Arthurs so I can find out who their parents were. Also, I'll need those documents for when I attempt to claim Irish citizenship. And I'm having some trouble figuring out how to go about it. It looks like I should apply to GRONI for the certificates, however they appear to require information such as the names of the parents and their addresses, both of which I have no idea about and had hoped to obtain from the certificates I wish to order. Also, it is my understanding that the volume and page number of the Birth Index entry can somehow be used to easily find the certificate, however I see no way to provide that info to GRONI on their form, and am uncertain of which of the numbers is important and of the proper way to format that information.
Can anyone provide some guidance on how I should proceed?
 

Name:    John Arthurs
Event Type:    Birth
Event Date:    Apr - Jun 1881
Event Place:    Ballymena, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year:    Apr - Jun 1881
Registration District:    Ballymena
Mother's Maiden Name: [Blank]
Volume Number:    1
Page Number:    113
GS Film number:    101058
Digital Folder Number:    004193459
Image Number:    00100

And:

Name:    Lizzie Arthurs
Event Type:    Birth
Event Date:    Apr - Jun 1893
Event Place:    Dungannon, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year:    Apr - Jun 1893
Registration District:    Dungannon
Mother's Maiden Name: [Blank]
Volume Number:    1
Page Number:    579
GS Film number:    101064
Digital Folder Number:    004193978
Image Number:    00396


Offline Sinann

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 29 September 13 18:25 BST (UK) »
I'm not 100% but think as these Certs are 1800s you can get them from Roscommon.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0

I'm sure someone will correct me if you have to get them from Northern Ireland.

Offline taramcdsmall

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 29 September 13 18:47 BST (UK) »
Hi There,

Just a side note to try and help ..... 'Mike' is short for Michael !

Do you not have the marriage cert for your Grandfather John which would have his father's name and occupation on it ?

Where was John in 1901 ? Was he still in Northern Ireland ?

Tara



Offline aghadowey

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:14 BST (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat, fbrg  :)

The records you found are from the civil registration index and in 2 different registration districts so they may not be siblings. It's usually best to work back through records one step at a time to avoid following the wrong people/family.

There's this family in 1901 in Dungannon - the birth record for Lizzie is possibly the daughter Elizabeth and there are children John & Michael BUT John is born in Tyrone (not Antrim like the birth record you found), Michael is younger not older and the family are Catholic. See how easy it can be to get confused?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/1739610
Same family in 1911- the three siblings still at home-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/868856

Have you found Elizabeth, John and Michael on a passenger manifest arriving in America? there are usually 2 pages and one question asks the name and address of nearest relative in U.K. The form also states name and address of person they are going to which will help locate other records.
Can you give us the names, birthdates/years for the siblings as well as the arrival details if known? or where they ended up at least so that we can try to find the correct family for you.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline fbrg

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:21 BST (UK) »
Hi There,

Just a side note to try and help ..... 'Mike' is short for Michael !

Do you not have the marriage cert for your Grandfather John which would have his father's name and occupation on it ?

Where was John in 1901 ? Was he still in Northern Ireland ?

Tara

No, no marriage certificate for John. In fact I was just about to post over in the U.S. forum asking for advice on finding one. I know he was married to Maude (possible maiden name Maude Watkins) in the 1910 Census (link) for Carbon Wyoming, and since he had a two year old daughter at that time (my mother) he must have been married for at least two years. I have no real idea when or where they may have married, and my searches have turned up nothing. There's was also a nine year old daughter on that census, but I'm pretty sure she was Maude's daughter by a previous marriage, which is why the Watkins maiden name is iffy.
You may also notice that he claimed to be born in Wyoming in the 1910 Census, however family lore says otherwise, and John (always later called Jack) put down Ireland as his birthplace in the 1920 Census (link).

I have no idea when John/Jack, Mike and their sister Lizzie came to the U.S, beyond that it had to be after Lizzie's birth in 1893, and before Mike's death in 1903.

I've tried all variants of of Michael I can come up with in searching for "Mike," and am inclining to the opinion that "Mike" might be a distortion of the derogatory Mick, meaning that I don't really know his first name.

I'm not 100% but think as these Certs are 1800s you can get them from Roscommon.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0

I'm sure someone will correct me if you have to get them from Northern Ireland.

Roscommon looks like it wants the same information on parents and birth address as GRONI. Any idea how I get around this?


Offline fbrg

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:33 BST (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat, fbrg  :)

The records you found are from the civil registration index and in 2 different registration districts so they may not be siblings. It's usually best to work back through records one step at a time to avoid following the wrong people/family.

There's this family in 1901 in Dungannon - the birth record for Lizzie is possibly the daughter Elizabeth and there are children John & Michael BUT John is born in Tyrone (not Antrim like the birth record you found), Michael is younger not older and the family are Catholic. See how easy it can be to get confused?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/1739610
Same family in 1911- the three siblings still at home-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/868856

Have you found Elizabeth, John and Michael on a passenger manifest arriving in America? there are usually 2 pages and one question asks the name and address of nearest relative in U.K. The form also states name and address of person they are going to which will help locate other records.
Can you give us the names, birthdates/years for the siblings as well as the arrival details if known? or where they ended up at least so that we can try to find the correct family for you.

Unfortunately that can't be the right family, as the birth dates don't match any of the later U.S. Census entries (of which there are several), nor can my grandfather still be in Ireland after 1903. I know that the births I found are in different districts, however Dungannon is only 50 km from Ballymena, which it seems to me is possible for the movement of the family in the 12 years separating the births.
I have been unable to find any passenger manifests for the family.
I have no information on Mike (perhaps not even his first name), but the information on the 1910 Census (link) is accurate for dates as far as I know for John/Jack and Lizzie.

Offline taramcdsmall

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:41 BST (UK) »
Hi

I'm afraid to say that you are going about your tree incorrectly.

You will need to go by facts as opposed to family lore.

You need your Mum's birth cert first to get her Mother's CORRECT maiden name.

You will the need to get your Grandparents marriage cert.

ONLY THEN can you even start to look for your Grandfather in Ireland.

Tara

Offline aghadowey

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:43 BST (UK) »
I know exactly where Ballymena and Dungannon are but it's highly unlikely that the 1893 birth is for your Elizabeth Arthurs.

Will do a bit of digging in U.S. records with the details you've posted and see if I can find something on their Irish origins.

The GRO, Roscommon form is really designed for people requesting their own certificate but you can order a cheeper research certificate with just the name, year/quarter, registration district, volume and page numbers. However, you aren't really ready to order anything yet.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Sinann

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Re: How to go about retrieving a birth certificate using the Civil Reg Index info?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 29 September 13 19:44 BST (UK) »



Roscommon looks like it wants the same information on parents and birth address as GRONI. Any idea how I get around this?



It's explained in the first post of the link I posted.