Author Topic: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister  (Read 3640 times)

Offline Beewiselet

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Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« on: Sunday 20 October 13 19:39 BST (UK) »
Hello - I wondered if there are any Tayvallich amateur sleuths that fancied a bit of a challenge? My family came from Tayvallich in the early part of the 1800s. I need to try and find out why the local minister altered my 3xGreat Grandfathers Henry Thomson's birthdate in the 1855 'census' that he carried out, changed his place of birth and then declared him illegitimate!! I have his birth cert from Greenock and his parents marriage certificate and the 1841 census which substantiates the 1837 Greenock birthdate - but I cannot for the life of me find any trace of his mother Harriet McIntyre after 1841 when she was 28 living with a Bell and Angus Grahame. She married a Henry Thomson (b around 1813 in Govan - Merchant Navy who I believe was of Irish descent) in Greenock in 1833, had a daughter Mary in 1834 and Henry in 1837. They were living apart in 1841 - but they both disappear after this date and Bell declared Henry her grandson in 1851 census... Hope someone can shed light on this - it's driving me potty!
Researching Thomson and McGregor in Argyll and Perthshire, Morrison, Dalziel, Grant, Archibald / Archbold in Lanarkshire, Hopkins and Garbutt in Gloucestershire, London and Yorkshire.

Offline argyllshiregirl

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #1 on: Monday 27 January 14 17:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
I'm a Tayvallich amateur sleuth! Well, I'm an amateur family historian, who once lived in Tayvallich, but now live in Canada. I love solving family tree mysteries and I've done a few of my own, but sometimes it takes many years, be warned, to gather all the clues. My family is mostly Argyll based too.

I was looking on ancestry.ca and I found a birth for a Henry Thomson on 17 April, 1840 in North Knapdale, Argyll (where Tayvallich is) to Harriot McIntyre and Henry (or Hendry) Thomson. If Harriet and Henry were split by 1840, maybe the local minister knew something that the registrar didn't ... that the new baby was not Henry Sr.'s child at all??? Just a thought - there are plenty such occurrences and cover ups in my own family tree.

As for Henry Jr. being a grandson of Bell Grahame, I suppose it is possible in several ways (1) Bell was a Mrs/Miss McIntyre before she married Angus Grahame, (2) a son of Bell's was the actual father of young Henry or (3) Harriet was born a Grahame but had an early marriage to a McIntyre or (4) she simply thought of him as a grandson, but I doubt that one.

Where did Henry Jr. go after he grew up? I see him (I believe) on the 1901 census living with a wife and daughter, both name Flora, in Kilcgreggan & Cove, Dumbartonshire. He gives his birth place as Tayvallich. 

Oh and here's something very interesting I just found, that hints at my first idea being more probable! On a report (I will provide the link) of local affairs it states " I met a blind man of the name of Angus Graham, age about 56, who informed me that he gets ..., pays no rent, has one daughter in service in Greenock, a wife alive and with him ... A boy ten years of age lives with them, a grand son of his wife, deserted by his parents."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8HZbAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA58&lpg=RA1-PA58&dq=angus+and+bell+graham+north+knapdale&source=bl&ots=32AHDXbl63&sig=VGkOvuKi801RD1lvxwjl_ThvgZc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-JXmUr6bOoO42wWN4IGgDw&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=angus%20and%20bell%20graham%20north%20knapdale&f=false

Hope that helps some. Let me know what else you've got. I would love to help you unravel this.

Mary
Fletcher of Glen Orchy, Argyll, McGregor of Argyll and Balquhidder, Perth, Mathison, Laidlaw, Forsyth of Dumfriesshire, McMillan, Johnston, Galbraith, Nicholson of Argyll, McPhail, McArthur, McKinnon, McLean, Paterson from Isle of Mull

Offline Beewiselet

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #2 on: Monday 27 January 14 20:09 GMT (UK) »
Mary - you are a genius! How amazing - we thought he had to have been abandoned. I'd love your help!! I think that there may be a chance that Mr Henry Thomson Snr was not of the religious persuasion or character that appeased the Minister in Tayvallich - or she was under the age of parental consent at the time of the wedding. The 1833 Greenock wedding certificate appears legitimate as is the first child's birth, called Mary in 1834. BUT there is no record of Mary beyond her birth and none of Henry Jnr until that time that the Minister chose to 'fiddle the accounts' as it were. You can plainly see the 1837 scored out in his records and 1840 substituted. However as Henry was 4 in 1841 it was a big stretch of the imagination to have him born in 1840... What on earth was going on? My only hope is that there are Merchant Seaman records which may uncover the truth about his Father. I think that Harriet was abandoned by Henry - or he died - and she re-invented herself elsewhere - was he dead by the time of Henry Jnrs birth? I think I found him in 1841 in digs with other Merchant Seaman - awaiting his ship one presumes....   Young Henry went on to Kilcreggan with my Great Great Grandmother.... Flora... who died in a famous Scottish architect's office in Glasgow in the early hours of the morning in 1907... another mystery we have yet to unravel. They don't make it easy these relatives of ours!! Many thanks again for your offer of help.  B x
Researching Thomson and McGregor in Argyll and Perthshire, Morrison, Dalziel, Grant, Archibald / Archbold in Lanarkshire, Hopkins and Garbutt in Gloucestershire, London and Yorkshire.

Offline argyllshiregirl

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 28 January 14 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Hello again,

It's hard to piece together the true facts sometimes. Illegitimacy was common (certainly was in my family) but was an awful scandal in early, rural areas and folks would be careful to cover it up if they could. Much easier then than today to give false info. about birth details. Sounds like the local minister knew the real deal, despite what someone tried to tell the government officials. As for census, ages were often rounded up/down depending on the instructions given to the census taker. They aren't necessarily accurate at all, but a great guide. Older folks often genuinely lost track of their birthdays and weren't sure of their exact age either. Also, the Clearances were fresh in the minds of many people and I think this tended to make them less likely to be forthcoming with information when government types etc. came around asking questions.  Even that excerpt from the book (link) I sent you, hints that the author wasn't 100% sure Angus Graham wasn't exaggerating his circumstances just a bit.

Myself, I love a good scandal! The colourful ancestors that I find are the ones I love the best. I have to tread lightly sometimes though. Some things that happened 80 - 100 years ago are still in the memories of some of my older family members who grew up there and remember how much heart ache it caused at the time. So I try not to pry too much. But I sure am curious, I must confess!

I see by your profile that you are looking for McGregors in Perth and Argyll? Aha, we might have something more in common! My mother is an Argyll McGregor of Perthshire roots. Our McGregors came to Argyll from Balquhidder, Perth (Rob Roy country) in the mid 1830s. I have lots to share about that.

Mary
Fletcher of Glen Orchy, Argyll, McGregor of Argyll and Balquhidder, Perth, Mathison, Laidlaw, Forsyth of Dumfriesshire, McMillan, Johnston, Galbraith, Nicholson of Argyll, McPhail, McArthur, McKinnon, McLean, Paterson from Isle of Mull


Offline Beewiselet

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #4 on: Friday 08 January 16 21:24 GMT (UK) »
Hello again - sorry for the delay in replying - we moved house in Feb 2014 and it's been mayhem ever since... my McGregors in Perthshire were from Little Dunkeld - I go back there at least once a year to visit the graveyard - it's right by the River Tay - which has flooded quite badly this week - so I'm going up at Easter to have a look :( I still haven't got to the bottom of the Tayvallich mob - I'm not even sure that Hariot McIntyre was related to the Grahames - I think that she dumped my G G Grandpa on them as Greenock was filthy and disease ridden... she must have had some family connection but I haven't found it yet. I suspect that Henry Thomson Snrs family were Thomas Thomson and his wife Mary Morrison from Downpatrick (my DNA has shown up 39% Irish - with not one relative so far to account for it!!) I did a lot of work for an Australian lady on her roots which I hoped would lead to her doing a DNA test which would have confirmed it - but she declined :( so back to square one. I did locate Henry Thomson Jnrs grave - it's huge - on the hills above Loch Sween in Kilcreggan - complete with Merchant Navy anchor. Paid for my Great Grandmas 3 siblings (she had died 6 years previously) - I am desperately trying to find their descendants to see if they have any more information - but it's very hard to get current / living people info. Even with Facebook!!! Hope to speak to you soon. Happy New Year!! Bee
Researching Thomson and McGregor in Argyll and Perthshire, Morrison, Dalziel, Grant, Archibald / Archbold in Lanarkshire, Hopkins and Garbutt in Gloucestershire, London and Yorkshire.

Offline argyllshiregirl

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 09 January 16 01:51 GMT (UK) »
Glad you are still digging! What kind of DNA test did you do? I have not done one yet but my father did a Y DNA test. Even though he is 100% Scottish many generations back, he got Irish DNA too. He expected it really as most west coast Scots are Celts, descendants of Irish people who came to Argyll (which translates to land of the Gael) centuries ago. Your Irish DNA could also come from that? Just a thought. Could be from more recent Irish too.
Fletcher of Glen Orchy, Argyll, McGregor of Argyll and Balquhidder, Perth, Mathison, Laidlaw, Forsyth of Dumfriesshire, McMillan, Johnston, Galbraith, Nicholson of Argyll, McPhail, McArthur, McKinnon, McLean, Paterson from Isle of Mull

Offline Beewiselet

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Re: Tayvallich 1855 'census' by the Minister
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 09 January 16 11:30 GMT (UK) »
Hellooo

I did the Ancestry.com test - I agree with you that west coast Scots probably have a good chance of having lots of crossover DNA with Ireland... but there does seem to be rather a lot in there! I'm definitely going to celebrate St Patrick's day now - with one of those funny Guinness hats!!! I wish more people did the DNA thing - and put their tree up too - it's really frustrating to get a high match with someone who hasn't linked it to anything!! I am now trying to track down Angus Grahame's daughter - she was in service in Greenock - where my Henry was born. Could she have known Harriet and tipped her off that Tayvallich was a good place to bring up a child - and that Angus and Bell would be happy to take on the child - as it would increase their chances of poor relief? (Henry Thomson snr's family in Govan had two children living with them in 1841 for which they received an allowance from the relatives so it wasn't uncommon - and I doubt if they were interested in taking on Henry Jnr - even though he was their grandson - as there would be no money in it??)

Oh well - here's hoping!

Bee
Researching Thomson and McGregor in Argyll and Perthshire, Morrison, Dalziel, Grant, Archibald / Archbold in Lanarkshire, Hopkins and Garbutt in Gloucestershire, London and Yorkshire.