Joyce in Kilmore, Brackagh (maybe!)

[familysleuth]

I have been searching in other boards for possible links - well, anything really!- to give me information about my great grandfather, Thomas Joyce. I wonder if one of you experts in Irish records could point me any closer to finding information.

Here is what I have at the moment:

Thomas Joyce born abt 1855 in Armagh with parents Andrew Joyce and Rachel Black (from his death cert in NZ 1933). I have no other info about him except he was a protestant, a Baker, had an awful marriage and his children disliked him. This is all a bit sad. He may have come out to NZ on the Assaye in 1874. He named his only son William Thomas Joyce.

I looked up the 1901/1911 census and found a mother Rachel (widow, 75 in 1901), John (b 1853)  and Henary (b. 1863) (their spelling) unmarried farmers in Kilmore, Brackagh. They looked possible.

I looked up marriages in civil reg and roots.ie - nothing.

I looked up births in civil reg and roots ie - nothing

I looked up will calendars and found an Andrew Joyce an executor to a will in Brackagh 1876

I looked up Griffiths Valuation and found Andrew Joyce in Kilmore Armagh

I looked up civil reg for deaths and found a Rachel Joyce in Banbridge at age 84 in 1905 (this age does not match census 1901 but would be consistent with not appearing in 1911 census)

I looked up civil reg for deaths and found an Andrew Joyce 1898 Banbridge

I looked up the Orange Covenant and a John and Henry signed in Brackagh. I compared the signature of John to the census signatures and to my (untrained) eye they are very similiar.

I had some help before regarding a will for a John Joyce in Brackagh in 1929 but I have been trying to find it on Proni again and the database seems not to be searching properly for me. If I can get a reg number I will try to order it.

Joyce is not a VERY common Armagh name. I have a cluster of andrew, rachel, thomas and william in the kilmore area in Brackagh. and from doing a search on the internet, it appears that there is a Banbridge in Armagh (I thought it was in county Down?). Would this be the registration place for Brackagh?

I have been following the 'all born in Armagh' possibility, but of course this may be incorrect.

Any help gratefully received!

[gaffy]

Thinking out to the side for a moment (siblings), the RootsIreland index search for Joyces with father Andrew marrying in County Armagh in the "right" timeframe brings back a Rachel Joyce marrying a Joseph Fowler in 1873. Might be worth paying to view...

V-e-r-y speculative, I know. 

 

Edited to add: BTW, here is the family in 1901 and 1911 (Mullahead is comforting to note):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Mullahead/1020663/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Mullahead/331998/

Familysearch has birth/baptisms for several of the children.

[aghadowey]

To start with here's a link to 1901 census entry-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Brackagh/1020480

Now for 1911-
here's John and brother Henary still living together-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Brackagh/331851
based on location and names of the children alone I would keep this record in mind-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Brackagh/331878

Here's the family of George and Anne in 1901 (Annie widowed by 1911)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Brackagh/1020500

Here's the John Joyce who died in 1929-
"Joyce John of Brackagh county Armagh farmer died 9 December 1929 Probate Belfast 20 February to William John Fowler farmer. Effects £158 10s."

One thing I didn't see mentioned in your list was the Valuation Revision Books which follow on from the printed Griffith's Valuation. They are now online (free) on PRONI's site-
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

[familysleuth]

thanks - seems as if I have been on the right track for finding some connections between these people.....

sooooo...... that John Joyce left his money to his sister's husband - her family now, I guess. They do seem to come together but we need the connection to Thomas!

any thoughts on the Banbridge registrations? do they belong to the Brackagh area?

[gaffy]

There's also an Elizabeth Joyce (father Andrew) who married a Thomas Balmer in 1878 in Mullavilly Parish Church  / CoI, her father was Andrew, a farmer.

As I'm searching, not much comes back but Mullavilly Parish Church / CoI seems to crop up all the time...

[familysleuth]

I was not paying attention - Banbridge is the poor law union - and I think the registration district. It therefore makes sense for the Andrew Joyce and Rachel Joyce to have death regs there.

What am I likely to find on the death registration - actual document, or is only an index available?

[aghadowey]

sooooo...... that John Joyce left his money to his sister's husband - her family now, I guess.
No, William John Fowler applied for administration of the estate but he would have had to follow what John Joyce wrote in his Will.

Yes, the Poor Law Union is usually the same as the Registration District.

What am I likely to find on the death registration - actual document, or is only an index available?
You will find the details needed to order a death certificate in the online civil registration index (www.familysearch.org) but to get the full details (place and cause of death, date, etc.) you would need to order the actual certificate. See here for details included on the certificate with links on ordering research copy (4 euros) from Roscommon-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=433043.0

[kingskerswell]

Hi,
   In 1855 a Thomas Joyce married Anne Gilmer in Mullavilly Church Of Ireland.

Regards

[familysleuth]

Thanks very much for your replies..... and after I went to the link, it answered my next questions about what I may find on a death certificate!

Could someone speculate as to why I can't find a marriage registration for Andrew Joyce and Rachel Black? there is one that fits in Kilmore for a Rachel Black in 1845, but she marries Samuel Russell - but nothing at all for Andrew Joyce in the time frame, and nothing linking him with  a 'Rachel'. I have a subscription to FindMyPast and have been cross-checking - I have found some discrepancies between these indexes.... mentioned in one, not mentioned in the other etc.

I have considered that this was Rachel's 2nd marriage, with the informant putting her maiden name on Thomas' death cert.... nothing there either that matches (but I am open to help!).

Gaffy, can you tell me where you were searching to get the Mullavilly church records?