John Kempthorne - lost grandfather

[JaneyCanuck]

By the way, I just did a search at Ysearch for the name Kempthorne, and it turns up in one pedigree, the testee's grx3 grandmother in paternal line (wife of grx3 grandfather in his surname line): Jane Kempthorne 1807 Breage. That person is in a tree at Ancestry/Mundia shown as born 1806; I don't see a baptism or marriage at the OPC site. But that might bode well for autosomal matches if there's any Kempthorne in you! or help to disprove the thesis, if there is no match.

Also, that's one reason to go for the oldest testee you can get - to reduce the number of generations to most recent common ancestor, and increase the chance of an autosomal DNA match. If your cousin's dad is living, he would be the best pick.

edit, just for info - 1851 shows Jane living in Breage but born in Sithney, so probably daughter of James and Jane, 1802:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3548773

[Vivienne Luke]

Hi Janey,
Unfortunately, the male in question is the oldest living supposed K descendant. His dad died some years ago. Still, it will be a start if it goes ahead. Let's hope something comes up to help us. This g gfather definitely did not want to be found!!!!

[Vivienne Luke]

Hi Janey,
A quick question: re your mention of Smiths in Liverpool when referring to Mark K in the army. When going through her mum's things, my cousin found photos/addresses referring to some Smiths in the Liverpool area. We have no idea of the connection ourselves. There was a Mr and Mrs Smith with a daughter Dorothy. Also the address of a Gwen Smith at 5 Stanley Gardens, Orral Park, Liverpool. Also a Florence Smith with two children: Cyril and Fernley(?).
A long shot I know, but worth a try to see if any of the names are familiar to you.
Vivienne

[JaneyCanuck]

Oh, so now I'm to investigate Smiths in Liverpool? What have I ever done to you!?
And I'm struggling to find where I mentioned Smiths in Liverpool ...

(Remember, "Smith" in my own case was just a stand-in invented for the actual supposed surname, which was only one step less common than that.)

Could be interesting, at least they aren't John and Mary.

Fernley was a briefly popular name for Smiths 1890-1920ish -- 14 of them, almost all in Plymouth / Devonport / East Stonehouse (Norfolk for the others). So your Smiths do seem like transplants.

Any idea of the timing of those letters?

Most of the Fernleys died in childhood though.
1892-1893
1894-1898
1895-1896 (Norfolk)
1902-1902
1911-1911
1907-1912 (he is the one in the 1911 census)
1915-1915

that leaves

Fernley H 1909 Blything married 1940 Surrey SW, I don't see a death
Fernley R 1922 Devonport married 1950 Middlesex, died 1999 Dorset
Fernley 1922 Devonport, died 1983 Plymouth

and births in Plymouth in 1951 and 1955; both married in the same area.

Looking for siblings would be monumental; even with unusual surnames, we're still looking at Smith.

but o m g, I tried the most unusual surname and lo, there is a brother Cyril, 1919 Devonport, for the 1922 Fernley who died in 1999. Cyril Claude Smith died 1986 Plymouth. There look to have been others elsewhere with the same surnames ... amazing, with a name like Wilbraham, there are 15 marriages to Smith after 1916 even. But here is ours:

Fanny C Wilbraham + Reginald C Smith, 1914 Devonport.

Except you said Florence. Could she have been one of those modern young women who tarted up her name from the olde fashioned one she was given?

[Vivienne Luke]

Oops, sorry Janey! Thanks for the reply. I did get confused as you had Smith as one of your ancestral names... You have amazing searching skills and found a lot of information very quickly. We will probably never know the connection with our family. I'll pass the info on to my cousin. I think we can dismiss any connection of the Smiths to Mark K. The Mark and James K remain a mystery as to where they went. Crossing fingers for the dna - but it will be some time before that happens. Thanks again.
Vivienne

[JaneyCanuck]

Always up for a good Smith.

At the address 5 Stanley Gardens, AINtree exchange in the Liverpool area telephone directory, 1946-1953, was Miss SM Smith.

There. Aren't you glad you asked?

There are two marriages in Liverpool that could account for the disappearance of that listing after 1953; I won't put details here as that is fairly recent - a Sheila in 1952 and a Sarah in 1953.

Did a bit of poking into the Reginald Smith + Fanny Wilbraham line but nothing sprang into view; just family friends perhaps. Reginald Claude Smith 1885 died in 1947 in Plymouth, perhaps his wife and children relocated after that ... although a Fanny C Smith 1893 died in Plymouth 1948. If your letters predate those dates, perhaps they were in Liverpool during the war ...

(You're right, I have a grx3 grmother Smith in Notts in my sig line ... and there's also a Smith somewhere in the tree in Cornwall a generation or two farther back. Into each tree a little Smith must fall, I think!)

[Vivienne Luke]

Hi Janey,
A voice from the past who you had hoped had disappeared. Returning to the search I had given up on, I decided to try another tack. I discovered that Mark Kempthorne from East Newlyn, who joined the Royal Marines in 1867 demobbed in 1879. He then disappears. His nephews emigrate to NZ along with his brother and other family members. No sight of him. Coincidently, John Kempthorne appears in St Germans (across the river from Plymouth, where Mark would have been delisted). The right age (approx), still a bachelor. He marries my g grandmother, and in three census returns 1891, 1901 and 1911, lists his birth place as East Newlyn (or something approximating that). Mark's parents are dead and his family spread out. He is in the 1861 census as a servant and is from a family of agricultural labourers, he resumes life as an agric labourer in 1881. I can't help thinking that my "John" and Mark are the same person. John appears at the same time that Mark disappears. John does not appear to exist before the 1881 census.
I have ordered Mark's service record from the Royal Archives.
Since you  have been so insightful in the past, I am wondering if there is any way I can prove my suspicions? My cousin is still waiting to get our male Y person to do the Family Tree DNA Y test. Hopefully, later this year.
I'd appreciate the benefit of your wisdom! 
Vivienne

[rosysgreatsuprise]

Hi,
In my research I have just found your request about your John Kempthorne from a few years ago.I am Rosalind Steed and my ancestors actually lived and ran the Sportsmans Arms Inn at Notterbridge by the river for 20 years that you mention that your relative did.William Steed is my ancestor and with his wife Anne Steed[nee Jane] were the landlords of this Inn from 1860-1881.They lived there with nine children and a lodger and a servant for 20 years.Later going to Torquay in Devon.There are old photos of the inn under Landrake-in the Francis Frith collection of old photographs if you wish to look online.Dont confuse it though with the sportsmans inn at saltash which is in the high street.Perhaps your relative came here afterwards when mine were no longer the tenants.I have been down to the inn and stayed behind in the caravan and static homes site on the land once owned by the inn.After the Steeds left I believe the inn was taken over by a Major.[they called him the mad major]There was also a water wheel and blacksmithy.I have a book with the old history of saltash and the Inn including written passages of its link with smugglers and about the tough landlady who once ran it before my william steed.Hope all this interests you and you find your ancestor.Please contact me if you wish for any help.Regards.Rosalind Steed.

[Vivienne Luke]

Hi Rosalind,
Thank you for your contribution to my research. How interesting that your ancestors had the Sportsman's Arms before mine did.
In 1881 Census, my great grandmother Ann Bickle (nee Ellacott) was with her first husband, Samuel Bickle who was licenced victualler at Notter Bridge. Samuel died in 1882. Ann then ran the pub for two years alone before marrying John Kempthorne (my great grandfather) in 1884 at St Stephens by Saltash church. They were running the Notter Bridge Inn at the time of the 1891 census. My grandfather, William Kempthorne had been born there in 1887. They then sold the Inn and moved in to Saltash.
Interestingly, John Kempthorne was a rogue. Ann had a strong relationship with her first husband Samuel Bickle and was eventually buried with him. John Kempthorne, her second husband and my ancestor, had changed his name after leaving the Marines. He was born Mark Kempthorne in East Newlyn. He had a bit of a record in the marines, and clearly a bit of a drinking problem. He reinvented himself as John Kempthorne and probably created a story to go with it! He was clearly a big drinker, which I think led to Ann selling up and moving to Saltash.
I have visited the Sportsman's Arms (in 2012) with two other descendants of Ann and John/Mark. We had a meal there and a good chat with the current (then) owners. My American cousin gave them some photos of the pub from the era when our ancestors were there. It is a lovely (if somewhat cold and damp) location.
William's daughter, May Kempthorne (born Saltash) was my mother. I was born in Cargreen, Cornwall in 1952 to May and Frank Luke. I now live in Tasmania, Australia.
Thanks again, it is lovely to hear from someone else who has ancestors who ran the Notter Bridge Inn/Sportsman's Arms.
Kind regards,
Vivienne