Author Topic: Charles John Chapman  (Read 7180 times)

Offline tomba

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Charles John Chapman
« on: Sunday 16 February 14 09:06 GMT (UK) »
Looking for information on the parents, Charles John Chapman b 17 Oct 1852, Histon, Cambridgeshire to William Charles Chapman and Sophia Hannah Burt its William and Sophia that I am concerned with Sophia's father was Thomas Burt and she married Charles John Chapman on the 27 Oct 1850 at Shoreditch St Leonard, England, on their marriage certificate it states that William was a widow, and so was Sophia, she was previously married to Frederick More (Moore) on the 29 Dec 1825 at St Michael Bassishaw, England
Charles John Chapman came to Australia and he married Mary Jane Shepherd on the 03 Sep 1884 at Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia, Mary Jane was also previously married to George John Taylor n the 06 Sep 1875 also at Port Augusta, South Australia
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Offline AMBLY

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 16 February 14 11:19 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Did your Charles John CHAPMAN die in Port Augusta SA, 29 April 1934 age 82?

An online tree - right or wrong -  has a Charles CHAPMAN b 17 Oct 1852 Histon Cambs, who died in Australia 23 Feb  1943, age 90 parents David CHAPMAN & Lucy CARTER?
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I186965&tree=SouthAustralia

I don't see any Birth Registration for a Charles John CHAPMAN registered in Cambridge around the Oct  or Dec Qtr 1852 (or near years) - there is a Charles CHAPMAN in Sep Qtr 1852

Cheers
AMBLY
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Offline groom

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 16 February 14 11:44 GMT (UK) »
I can't see the family in 1861 or 1871 either. There is this family in 1871 (they are also there in 1861)

RG10; Piece: 1582; Folio: 97; Page: 29
Chesterton Cambridgeshire
 

Thomas Chapman   43
Sophia Chapman     44
Charles Chapman   19
Isabella Chapman   16
Sophia Chapman    13
Adelaide Chapman   10
Kate Chapman             8
Thomas Chapman     7
James Chapman             5
William Chapman             3

If your Sophia was previously married on 29 Dec 1825, that means she must have been born about 1805/1808, so was quite old when she gave birth to Charles.
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Offline Annette7

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 16 February 14 12:20 GMT (UK) »
I too am bewildered by your details and wonder as to your sources.

I note on the marriage entry in 1884 that Charles John states his father is William Charles.  So far, so good.   However, there is no Charles John born in Histon in 1852 (as has been pointed out and the only Charles born in regn. district of Chesterton (which covered Histon) is a plain Charles, son of a Thomas and Sophia.

Also, the marriage in 1850 was of a plain William to a plain Sophia!

However, I have found a Charles John Chapman b.1852 who appears to vanish after the 1871 census who seems far more likely to be your man.

He was indeed the son of a William Charles Chapman, a printer, who married a Sophia Markway 22/4/1838 St. Mary Stratford, Bow, London (he son of William Chapman, also a printer, and she dau. of David Markway, a Laundress (? that's what it looks like).

WC and Sophia had a dau. Sophia Martha bp.25/12/1839 Stepney - 3 children were then baptised together at St. Dunstan, Stepney on 1/2/1852:

William David James John b.16/2/1843
Susannah Mary b.7/7/1845
Charles John b.9/1/1852

Later census show at least 5 more children born to them.   By 1881 Sophia is a widow but her name is listed as Martha on 1881 census.   In 1871 family were living in Mile End (Sophia shown as Martha S.) and William Charles Chapman bc.1813, d. June quarter 1879 Mile End.

The fact that Charles John Chapman b.1852 Stepney, London, son of William Charles Chapman and wife Sophia, 'disappears' after 1871 Census would seem to support the theory that he is the Charles John Chapman, son of a William Charles Chapman, who married in Australia 1884.  This Charles John Chapman would fit exactly with the Charles John who died 29/4/1934 aged 82 (having been born 9/1/1852).

If this is correct, then his parents were NOT the William and Sophia who married in 1850 but the pair who married in 1838 as stated above.

Annette
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Offline tomba

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #4 on: Monday 17 February 14 00:33 GMT (UK) »
Annette,
Thanks for that, me too I am very confused, my information comes from notes given to me by a friend and I said that I would put the data onto the computer for him the notes are from his father and yes they are confusing: unfortunately his father is now deceased.

In one folder he has that Charles John b 1852- married Mary Jane Tayor (nee Shepherd) was the son of David Chapman and Lucy Carter??? Of which I can find no evidence.

In another he has that Charles John b 1852- married Mary Jane Tayor (nee Shepherd) was the son of William Charles Chapman and Sophia Hanna Moore. Who were married in shoreditch27/10/1850

The notes go on to state that Sophia was the daughter of Timothy Moore and Sophia baptised25/9/1826 at Shoreditch St Leonards, London  this I believe is wrong also (re marriage cert)

Charles John Chapman was born the son of William Charles Chapman and Sophia Hannah Moore He married Mary Jane Shepherd, Taylor daughter of John Shepherd and Sarah Boid, on 03 Sep 1884 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia (Residence of Walter Graham Port Augusta).

Mary Jane Shepherd was born about 1857 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia as the first child of John Shepherd and Sarah Boid. She died on 29 Aug 1922 in Pt Augusta, South Australia, Australia. When she was 18, She married George John Taylor,son of John Taylor and Hannah Keatley, on 06 Sep 1875 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia (St. Augustine Church, Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia). When she was 27, She married Charles John Chapman,son of William Charles Chapman and Sophia Hannah Burt, on 03 Sep 1884 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia (Residence of Walter Graham Port Augusta).

Charles John Chapman and Mary Jane Shepherd had the following children:

1.   Maud Mary Chapman was born on 13 Jul 1885 in Port Augusta, South Australia. She died on 04 May 1970 in Adelaide, South Australia (Centenial Park Cemetary, Adelaide, South Australia Section: General AF Path/Bed: 27 Site No: 699A). She married William James Holbrook Turner in 1907 in Port Augusta, South Australia.
2.   Arthur Charles Chapman was born on 17 Sep 1888 in Davenport, South Australia, Australia. He died on 03 Aug 1957 in South Australia, Australia.
3.   Emma Jane Chapman was born on 24 Oct 1890 in Davenport, South Australia, Australia. She died on 07 Jul 1964 in Ovingham, South Australia, Australia. She married William Charles Dempsey on 12 Nov 1913 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia (Residence of  C J Chapman, Port Augusta, South Australia).
4.   George Robert Chapman was born on 01 Jan 1893 in Davenport, South Australia, Australia. He died in Nov 1975 in South Australia, Australia.
5.   Ethel Victoria Chapman was born on 19 Aug 1897 in Davenport, South Australia, Australia. She died on 09 Jul 1978. She married Claud Higgens on 19 Jul 1922.

William Charles Chapman He married Sophia Hannah Burt, daughter of Thomas Burt, on 27 Oct 1850 in Shoreditch St Leonard, England (Widow /Printer).

Sophia Hannah Burt More was born about 1805 in St Michael Bassishaw, England as the first child of Thomas Burt. When she was 20, She married Frederick More on 29 Dec 1825 in St Michael Bassishaw, England. When she was 45, She married William Charles Chapman on 27 Oct 1850 in Shoreditch St Leonard, England (Widow /Printer).

William Charles and Sophia Hannah were both widows when they were married in 1850 So who was Williams first wife???

I have found but not confirmed the following if William and Hannah werenít married until 1850 the first 3 children donít fit ???

William Charles Chapman and Sophia Hannah Burt had the following children:

1.   Sophia Martha Chapman was born on 25 Dec 1839 in SAINT DUNSTAN,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND. She died about 1846 (Age: 7).
2.   William David James John Chapman was born on 16 Feb 1843 in Stepney, London, England.
3.   Susannah Mary Chapman was born on 07 Jul 1845 in SAINT DUNSTAN,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND.
4.   Charles John Chapman was born on 09 Jan 1852 in SAINT DUNSTAN,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND. He died on 23 Feb 1943 in Kensington Park, South Australia, Australia. He married Mary Jane Shepherd on 03 Sep 1884 in Port Augusta, South Australia, Australia (Residence of Walter Graham Port Augusta).
5.   Martha Sophia Chapman was born on 18 May 1854 in SAINT DUNSTAN,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND.
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Offline Annette7

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #5 on: Monday 17 February 14 14:23 GMT (UK) »
As the notes themselves are so confusing I think you just have to resort to given facts.

Charles John Chapman b.1852 d.29/4/1934 aged 82 - when married in 1884 states his father was named William Charles Chapman.   (so definitely not the son of David Chapman and Lucy Carter, who although did go to Australia as an infant did die there in 1943.   His mother died there in 1854 after giving birth to a daughter at sea).

The only paper trail we have of a Charles John Chapman, son of a William Charles Chapman, is the one b.9/1/1852, bp.1/2/1852 St. Dunstan, Stepney, London (baptised together with 2 older siblings).   Have been doing some more digging on William Charles Chapman, who was a printer - having 2 Christian names and a more precise occupation makes him easy to find in the records.

However, have now found that CJ's baptism in 1852 (with siblings William David James John b.1843 and Susannah Mary b.1845) is incorrect.    It shows that all 3 were the children of William Charles and wife Sophia - have now discovered that the 2 siblings did have Sophia as their mother but she was not actually CJ's mother because she died in 1849!

As stated before, William Charles Chapman married Sophia Mackway (not Markway) 22/4/1838.   They had children as follows:

Sophia Martha bp.25/12/1839 St. Dunstan, Stepney (bur.1/11/1846 Stepney)
William David James John b.16/2/1843 (bp.1/2/1852 St. Dunstan, Stepney)
Susannah Mary b.7/7/1845 (bp.1/2/1852 St. Dunstan, Stepney)

Wife Sophia bc.1812, bur.7/10/1849 Stepney.

Now it becomes a bit weird in that William Charles remarried to a Martha Sophia Arbery 29/3/1851 St. James the Less, Bethnal Green, London.   She was a spinster.   However, they are together on the 1851 Census which was taken on 30/3/1851, just a day later.   Can only assume that the enumerator started noting details just prior to the census as the 1851 Census shows William Charles Chapman, widower and, confusingly, Martha Sophia is shown with surname Chapman but as 'sister'???   Presumably the enumerator visited prior to 29th March (the day they married) when WC would have indeed have been a widower and either due to embarrassment or enumerator error, Martha Sophia shown as sister.   Who knows?

1851 Census - 1 Pleasant Row, Mile End, London - ref. HO107 - 1553 - 442 - 1.

William Charles Chapman   35    Widr.   Printer/Compositor     
Martha Sophia Chapman  25    Sister (originally written as dau. and crossed out)  Mar.   
W. D. Chapman    son    8
Susannah Chapman  dau. 5

(all shown born Stepney - feel sure that it was their marriage date that confused things for the enumerator).

Since Charles John wasn't born until 9/1/1852 (and thus not on 1851 census) his mother was Martha Sophia Arbery, WC's second wife (not Sophia Mackway).   His own baptism should have stated his mother as Martha Sophia (and not plain Sophia as it was with his 2 siblings).   I suppose it's an easy mistake for the vicar to have made.   CJ was the first child of WC and Martha Sophia and go to get him baptised and WC decides that as previous 2 children hadn't yet been baptised they'd get all 3 done together.   WC duly gives Sophia as mothers name for William and Susannah and vicar assumes (if not told) that she was also the mother of CJ when in actual fact it was his second wife Martha Sophia.

WC and Martha Sophia had:

Charles John b.9/1/1852 (bp.1/2/1852 St. Dunstan, Stepney - home address given as 1 Pleasant Row)
Henry Joseph b.4/3/1853 (bp.27/3/1853    ditto)
Martha Sophia b.18/5/1854 (bp.18/6/1854 ditto - also died 1854)
Frederick George b.17/9/1855 (bp.7/10/1855 ditto - died 1856)
Emily Alice b.6/1/1857, bp.15/2/1857 ditto - died 1857)
Benjamin Robert b.30/5/1858, (bp.4/7/1858 ditto)
Kate Mary Ann b.19/6/1860 (bp.15/7/1860 ditto)
Thomas John Arbery b.14/3/1862 (bp.6/4/1862 Holy Trinity, Mile End)
Arthur William b.12/6/1864 (bp.3/7/1864           ditto  )

So, Charles John Chapman - born 1852 - was the son of William Charles Chapman, printer, and 2nd. wife Martha Sophia Arbery (married 29/3/1851). 

William Charles' first wife was Sophia Mackway whom he married in 1838 and who died in 1849.

1861 Census - 11 Windsor Terrace, Stepney - ref. RG9 - 295 - 129 - 14.

William C. Chapman   47     Printer Compositor       b. Shoreditch, London.
Martha Chapman   35                                           b. Bethnal Green, London
Susannah M. Chapman  15                                    b. Stepney
Charles J Chapman   9                                              ditto
Henry J. Chapman    8                                              ditto
Benjamin R. Chapman  3                                           ditto
Kate M. A. Chapman  10 mos                                     ditto

David Chapman and Lucy Carter plus plain William Chapman, a gardener, widower and Sophia Moore, widow (married 1850) do not figure in this at all.   Neither couple were the parents of Charles John which I hope I have now explained satisfactorily. 

Unfortunately, when one is presented with notes taken by another, it is always difficult to unravel things when they have formed the wrong/mixed conclusions.

In conclusion, Charles John Chapman was indeed born 1852, his father was William Charles Chapman but his mother was not WC's first wife Sophia (nee Mackway) but WC's second wife Martha Sophia Arbery.

Phew!

Annette
 
 

Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline tomba

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Re: Charles John Chapman
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 18 February 14 04:26 GMT (UK) »
Annette,

hi thanks for all that it does take a bit of sorting out when you don't have access to all the information thankyou for the time you have taken it is very much appreciated
McGuffog, Grieve, Broadfoot, Flett, Rigg, Riddick, Gillies, Jobson, Gillies, Bath, Hanna, Betterridge, Ellem,